onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2008-05-04 09:15:00
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Entry tags:gemara, gentiles, kiruv, women

Ethics of the Talmud
 
The Jewish Learning Institute (JLI) people came out with another class, Ethics of the Talmud

It is an excellent example of what bothers people most about kiruv & shlichus classes.  Over six weeks, the not-yet-frum Jew, who has never studied gemara in depth, will be exposed some of the ethical dillemmas the Talmud discusses. Abortion, euthanasia, honesty and so on. The goal of the class is to demonstrate how Judaism and the Talmud offer "a moral compass to guide you through the labyrinth of life."  JLI managed to secure endorsements from several prominent attorneys and professors, including Harvard's Alan Dershowitz and Columbia's Thomas Zweifel. Interestingly, this course somehow received accreditation for continuing education credits for attorneys (CLE) and physicians (AMA) as well. 

I don't know how to tell you this, Professors Dershowitz and Zweifel. But out of all the texts in Judaism, the talmud is the one I would use last for my moral compass. True, it may have been pretty progressive for 500 C.E., but to use the gemara for ethical guidance in 2008 could really get you into hot water. 

I'm gonna guess that the JLI course does not mention some of these halachik points: 

* You are not allowed to save a gentile's life on shabbos, unless you fear reprisals against Jews for failing to do so. 
* When you see a man and a woman drowning, all other things being equal, you must save the man first, because he has more commandments to fulfill. 
* Abortions may be assur for you and me, but the sanhedrin was allowed to beat a pregnant woman until her fetus was aborted if she committed a capital crime. This was done to save her the embarrassment of giving birth posthumously. 
* The laws of honesty are different for Jews and gentiles. If  a Jew overpays you, you are obligated to return the money. If the same happens with a gentile, you are not. 
* In general, many punishment laws are much stricter for  gentiles than for Jews. A gentile is allowed to be put to death with circumstancial evidence only, a Jew must be admonished by two witnesses during the act itself. A gentile is executed for stealing whereas a Jew is not.
* Women, for the most part, are not allowed to serve as witnesses or judges in a court of law.

And so on, there are plenty of other examples that I have discussed at some point or another in this blog.

So, Dr. Zweifel, when you said that this course offers "21st century leaders of all stripes a crucial lighthouse in the sea of ethical uncertainty", were you aware of these talmudic conclusions? Do you think the American system of justice in 2008 has much to learn from the conclusions of the gemara about women or goyim?  

Now, to be clear, I am not positing that the Judaic system of ethics is completely antiquated. There are  texts which would appropriate for the study of ethics and morality as an introductory course in Judaism. Pirkei Avos, for example, or later shailos u'teshuvos about medical ethics. But If you are going to teach unaffiliated Jews about the ethical system proposed by the rabbis in the talmud, please be sure and teach them that the gemara is not all sweet roses and moral lighthouses. 

Otherwise, you are no better than a used carsalesman who only points out the new coat of paint and the shiny exterior, while forgetting to mention the need for new brakes and the recent trouble with the engine. I wonder what the Talmud would say about the ethics of used carsalesmen. 




(60 comments) - (Post a new comment)

JLI = a Chabad division....
(Anonymous)
2008-05-04 05:53 pm UTC (link)
....deceiptfully disguised as "intellectual", and that charges a fee for "courses" and seminars in bigotery and lies.
i don't know about mr zweifel but hey, "crafty allan", the defender of OJ, his endorsments, are how to put it gently, not effective on me.
but then it's natural. for 'achizat einayim', they got the best endorsment!
Eshkol Hakofer

(Reply to this)

"If a Jew , you are obligated to return ... If the same happens with a gentile,
(Anonymous)
2008-05-04 06:00 pm UTC (link)
.... you are not."
not exactly OSM, actually it's not that you have the option to keep the loss, it's really worse, "u are not allowed" to return it to the gentile, (not unless u risk to get caught!).
yasher koyech!
Eshkol Hakofer

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: "If a Jew , you are obligated to return ... If the same happens with a gentile,
[info]llennhoff
2008-05-04 11:23 pm UTC (link)
The rabbi at my Agudah shul mentioned during a dvar torah that he had received a sheila from a woman who had received a package of food by mistake from a local grocery store's delivery service. She asked if she was obligated to return the food to the store. He replied that by the letter of halacha she was not obligated but "I wouldn't be able to say a bracha over that food."

Apparently the halacha regarding this case varies.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: "If a Jew , you are obligated to return ... If the same happens with a gentile,
(Anonymous)
2008-05-06 04:40 am UTC (link)
Rav Pam, zt'l, said even though one may keep it, one should still return it, as there will be no bracha from it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

I wonder what the Talmud would say about the ethics of used carsalesmen.
(Anonymous)
2008-05-04 06:05 pm UTC (link)
gee OSM,
it probably depends whom one is selling to, no?
:-) Eshkol Hakofer

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I wonder what the Talmud would say about the ethics of used carsalesmen.
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-05-04 06:58 pm UTC (link)
Eshkol, I was going to write that but I stopped myself because in many places the gemara is very openly against the outright cheating of anyone, Jew or gentile. More subtle dishonesty is sometimes permitted, but I do not know that the gemara would allow a Jewish carsalesman to completely conceal a product's deficits when selling to a gentile.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I wonder what the Talmud would say about the ethics of used carsalesmen.
[info]antidos
2008-05-05 12:36 am UTC (link)
"Goyim are trash according to Torah" ( Off the Derech by Faranak Margolese )

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 12:07 pm UTC (link)
On gentiles vs jews: You are being way too simplistic. Firstly, the treatment of a ben noach is not the same as that of a pagan. Secondly, even with a pagan, the logic is "we don't have to be nicer to them then they are to each other according to their own laws."

On punishments for gentiles. You are missing a 'minor' detail: these punishments are administrated by the gentile Noahide court, not by the Jews.

On women as witnesses or judges in a court of law: I have to say that this entire irresponsible, simplistic and misleading post of yours makes a very good case for supporting this policy.

Above all, from a purely secular point of view, one would most definitely make allowances for the fact that Talmud is an ancient code and focus on those aspects where it is amazingly ahead of it's times. I bet you have no trouble seeing the incredible visionary qualities in the US constitution, yet it took more than a hundred years for the US to let women vote... But when it comes to Talmud, you will just splatter recycled anti-semitic crap over the web. If there was some kind of cosmic symmetry in the world, the eventual pogrom caused by you would land on your head. Alas, you will most likely cause harm to other Jews...

- MP

(Reply to this) (Thread)

mp addresses the issue with the twist and lie solution
(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 01:38 pm UTC (link)
and what else? avoid the real issue.

"Firstly, the treatment of a ben noach is not the same as that of a pagan."
so? details please, how much nicer does it get?

"Secondly, even with a pagan, the logic is "we don't have to be nicer to them then they are to each other according to their own laws." "
and how is that determined? and who does the determining? and how fairly is it done?

"You are missing a 'minor' detail: these punishments are administrated by the gentile Noahide court, not by the Jews."
and how exactly does that happen? and who writes the codex noahidus? and on whose behest does the noahide court work?

"one would most definitely make allowances for the fact that Talmud is an ancient code and focus on those aspects where it is amazingly ahead of it's times" what is this in american english?

"On women as witnesses or judges in a court of law: I have to say that this entire irresponsible, simplistic and misleading post of yours makes a very good case for supporting this policy. "
i guess we are to take it that this is the policy!

"If there was some kind of cosmic symmetry in the world, the eventual pogrom caused by you would land on your head. Alas, you will most likely cause harm to other Jews..."
pogrom? caused by OSM? no kidding! what do u recommend? MP, sweeping the truth under the carpet?

Eshkol Hakofer




(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: mp addresses the issue with the twist and lie solution
(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 02:33 pm UTC (link)
On Noahides: I am not the one that posted this irresponsible laundry list, OSM did. Let her do her own research BEFORE posting. As to their courts - they are supposed to be run and administrated by noahides, complete with legislating additional codes for running a civil society. The basic Noahied code differs from Torah Law (and there are many opinions on the details of those differences) but, yes, the punishment is always capital and that is Biblical (from G-d).

"One would most definitely make allowances for the fact that Talmud is an ancient code and focus on those aspects where it is amazingly ahead of it's times" what is this in american english?
Well, it's definitely not the russian English. Need a dictionary, my slavic friend?

What would I recommend? Definitely not a naked list without sources or careful analysis of each issue. How about that?

-MP

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Sources - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-05 03:48 pm UTC

[info]onionsoupmix
2008-05-05 02:40 pm UTC (link)
Hey MP. Whassup.

On gentiles vs jews: You are being way too simplistic. Firstly, the treatment of a ben noach is not the same as that of a pagan. Secondly, even with a pagan, the logic is "we don't have to be nicer to them then they are to each other according to their own laws."

Are you implying that these rules against nonJews only apply to pagans? Which ones? As far as I know, all the differences I listed apply to bnei noach as well. The not-saving-life on shabbos, according to some people, applies to secular Jews as well. Check the kitzur shulchan aruch on that one.
On punishments for gentiles. You are missing a 'minor' detail: these punishments are administrated by the gentile Noahide court, not by the Jews.

Well, obviously, that's because we don't have control of the court systems anymore. But if we did have the sanhedrin, for example, and gentiles were Jewish subjects, we would not have the authority to enforce these rules? What is your source for this assertion? If so, what are all these bnei noach rules? Just suggestions for the rest of the world?
Regardless, it is still a minor detail. The rules should not be different for anyone, say regarding theft, because of religious status. Why should a Ben Noach be given the death penalty and the Jew has to pay double? Why is that fair?

On women as witnesses or judges in a court of law: I have to say that this entire irresponsible, simplistic and misleading post of yours makes a very good case for supporting this policy

This is an ad hominem argument. Say something on topic about this and I will be happy to reply.

Above all, from a purely secular point of view, one would most definitely make allowances for the fact that Talmud is an ancient code and focus on those aspects where it is amazingly ahead of it's times. I bet you have no trouble seeing the incredible visionary qualities in the US constitution, yet it took more than a hundred years for the US to let women vote... But when it comes to Talmud, you will just splatter recycled anti-semitic crap over the web. If there was some kind of cosmic symmetry in the world, the eventual pogrom caused by you would land on your head. Alas, you will most likely cause harm to other Jews...

Your first point about the historical validity of the gemara was made in my post. Please review it if you need to. The difference between the gemara and the constitution is that the latter can be changed and the former can't and all I keep hearing as the standard answer to many questions is "we can't change anything because we don't have the sanhedrin anymore". That is a lame response and it is exactly what makes the American system of law preferable to the Jewish one. The American system is dynamic and responsive to the people's needs and changing moores. The Jewish system is stuck for the last 2000 years because we don't have the sanhedrin.

And you'll be happy to know I did not consult any anti-semitic websites in writing this post. All my sources were sefarim or websites organized by frum Jews. If you have a specific question about a source, I'll be happy to direct you to the correct daf, siman, whatever.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2008-05-05 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Above all, from a purely secular point of view, one would most definitely make allowances for the fact that Talmud is an ancient code and focus on those aspects where it is amazingly ahead of it's times. I bet you have no trouble seeing the incredible visionary qualities in the US constitution, yet it took more than a hundred years for the US to let women vote...

As you put it, that's the secular view. The OJ view is that the Talmud is timeless and the laws don't change, so they're just as valid for today as they were when they were written/handed down. So why even bother making the "secular" argument?

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Primary education is always oversimplification but there is no truth in higher learning extremes.
[info]24816
2008-05-05 02:46 pm UTC (link)
…Третьим из человеческих качеств, проводящих высшую гармонию в мир отдельных элементов, является способность ощущать красоту. Чувство прекрасного возникает, когда ощущается нечто, скрывающееся за материальными формами. Маараль из Праги утверждает, что это происходит всегда, когда сочетаются две противоположности. Тогда на их стыке раскрывается нечто, что объединяет их на более высоком уровне. Именно поэтому третье свойство - красота - указывает на то, что, когда человек найдет правильные пропорции между милостью и строгостью, в мир придет новый духовный свет, который не проявляется в процессе борьбы противоположностей…
Рав Зеев Мешков
-FI

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Primary education is always oversimplification but there is no truth in higher learning extremes
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-05-05 03:07 pm UTC (link)
What does this have to do with the topic? Just asking.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Primary education is always oversimplification but there is no truth in higher learning extremes
[info]24816
2008-05-05 03:57 pm UTC (link)
You were moping around that newcomers don’t get balanced information to which I replied that this is always the case with elementary education.
But you yourself lean heavily to the accusation side, so I pointed that on advanced level going to extremes bounds you to ugliness, since, according to Maharal, the beauty is revealed when one is rising above fighting ground. This is where controversies get reconciled.
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Primary education is always oversimplification but there is no truth in higher learning extremes - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-05 04:01 pm UTC
Re: Primary education is always oversimplification but there is no truth in higher learning extremes - [info]24816, 2008-05-05 04:07 pm UTC
Re: Primary education is always oversimplification but there is no truth in higher learning extremes - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-05 04:20 pm UTC
Talmud strikes cord with secular thinkers. - [info]24816, 2008-05-05 04:44 pm UTC

[info]ymarkov
2008-05-05 09:46 pm UTC (link)
Here's something I don't understand. You are recommending Pirkei Avot, which was written by the very same tannaim (amoraim for the last chapter) who propounded the halakhic conclusions you deplore. Why?

Yes, the Gemara is a moral lighthouse, and that's precisely why it's not all sweet roses.

(Also, I take offense at your calling the "no Sanhedrin" argument "lame." Yes, the system is broken (you might even say, it's lame) and many of its conclusions are out of date; in that sense, the American one is better. But that's us not getting our act together over all these years.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-05-06 01:52 am UTC (link)
Good question, that one about the pirkei avos.
So here's the answer. For me, a class on the general topic of talmudic ethics is very broad and must, to be intellectually honest, discuss the unpleasant hashkafic viewpoints that I mentioned in my post. A class on pirkei avos is more narrow in focus, less offensive and can be seen as a complete whole. These are not halachos, they are suggestions. And there aren't many horrible things about women and goyim included in that set of suggestions. And these suggestions do address relevant social themes, although they are not as controversial (for the most part, leaving the don't talk to the women thing aside) as abortion and euthanasia. And the English translation does say "Ethics of Fathers" :)

However, your point about the same people writing both texts is well taken.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-05-06 01:58 am UTC (link)
(Also, I take offense at your calling the "no Sanhedrin" argument "lame." Yes, the system is broken (you might even say, it's lame) and many of its conclusions are out of date; in that sense, the American one is better. But that's us not getting our act together over all these years.)

It is very lame of God to require me to follow a broken system for 200 years because we are not improved sufficiently for the arrival of moshiach. That would be like your boss telling you that because you and your co-workers are such losers, you now all have to use computers that use the DOS system instead of Windows during the time he is on a vacation, which will, surprise, be for the next few years. How long are you going to work in that company under those rules?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]ymarkov
2008-05-06 12:49 pm UTC (link)
It is very lame of God to require me to follow a broken system
It's very unfair to blame God for our failings. He requires us to follow a system. That it's still broken is our problem. Nor should it take Mashiakh to fix it!

A better analogy would be a workplace where the workers are empowered to upgrade their PCs - and have access to their choice of installation CDs - but can't agree on how to do it.

(BTW, "Ethics of the Fathers" is not really a good translation. "Chapters of Basic Principles" would be more like it.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 01:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2008-05-06 03:53 pm UTC
How about incorporating local leaders into Sanhedrin? - [info]24816, 2008-05-06 04:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 04:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2008-05-06 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 08:31 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2008-05-06 10:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-07 12:53 pm UTC
There is no need to build up the drama. - [info]24816, 2008-05-06 01:24 pm UTC
Re: There is no need to build up the drama. - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 04:27 pm UTC
Such things should be coordinated with the leadership. - [info]24816, 2008-05-06 04:30 pm UTC

[info]ymarkov
2008-05-05 09:58 pm UTC (link)
As a bonus question: what, if anything, is wrong with this thesis?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

The author is OSM look-alike?
[info]24816
2008-05-05 10:21 pm UTC (link)
http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/valentine.html
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)

It did strike me as fascinating...
[info]march_30
2008-05-05 11:45 pm UTC (link)
..as to how similar OSM's comments are to the comments on various white supremacist web-sites. "Come and Hear" is only one of them.

The full context of the Talmud is actually more benign, and if you have a good moral idea you can always take it from the particular (Jewish) and move it to the general (Gentile).

I feel all of Talmudic Judaism moving in this way it just take time to recover from religious persecution - -read Rabbi Samson Hirsch's Hanukkah sermons where he describes Jew and Gentile as part of a single human entity. BTW -he was very Orthodox

I think OSM has a lot of anger and frustration, and as many people do when feeling this way, they lash out at those close to them -in this case it is her religious matrix she turns on.

The very selectivities with which OSM responds to issues raised accentuates this conclusion

The tone of the posts has definitely gone from healthy skepticism to self -hating. The Talmud IS Judaism, so to hate the Talmud is to hate Judaism

Jewish comedians often say they are their own worst enemies, alas - sometimes it is not a joke

I conclude by saying that the Talmud remains the most amazing collaborative work ever created in human history.

If this blog is influencing a readers' view of the Talmud, make no judgment: study it with a competent scholar -rabbinic or academic, Jew or Gentile in a class or tutorial setting and you will see the beauty of a true partnership between Divine and Human.

OSM gazes upon her neighbors' windowboxes growing scraggly plants with her back turned to the lush Edenic garden of her own backyard.....
see Song of Songs 7:1 שׁוּבִי שׁוּבִי הַשּׁוּלַמִּית
and so should OSM do as Scripture advises....

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: It did strike me as fascinating...
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-05-06 02:27 am UTC (link)
1. As I mentioned, no sources were taken from antisemitic websites.
2. Come-and-hear is not a white supremacist site. Not sure where you got that one from.
3. You do not know enough about the widening gap between Modern Orthodoxy and the rest of Orthodoxy. I suggest you learn more about this gap. My blog, for the most part, does not address the Modern Orthodox community.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Why do we get answers that don't... - [info]march_30, 2008-05-06 02:54 am UTC
Re: Why do we get answers that don't... - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 03:20 am UTC
Thank you for clearing the blogosphere - (Anonymous), 2008-05-06 03:31 am UTC
Thank you for clearing the blogosphere - [info]march_30, 2008-05-06 03:32 am UTC
Re: Thank you for clearing the blogosphere - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 01:07 pm UTC
Re: Thank you for clearing the blogosphere - [info]march_30, 2008-05-06 04:44 pm UTC
Re: Thank you for clearing the blogosphere - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 05:21 pm UTC
Якби не мій дурень, то и я б посміявся. - [info]24816, 2008-05-06 02:05 pm UTC
widening gap? Which star system do you call home? - [info]march_30, 2008-05-06 03:14 am UTC
Re: widening gap? Which star system do you call home? - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-06 01:12 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-05-06 08:55 pm UTC (link)
I'm going to take this from another angle....

Is it really and truly so bad if a course - which would be relatively short, and not consist of years of yeshiva studies - focused on the "best" of the Talmud? On lasting moral/ethical principles? On methods of debate and logical reasoning which were innovative then, and continue to have a wide impact?

I knew you feel like you were duped. However, most of the people doing these courses aren't going to become full BTs and run off to Morristown or Machon Chana, and fewer still will live with the nutjobs that apparently populate your shul and parts of imamother.

I'd think that studying the "best" of the Talmud may be worthwhile because:

- it was, and continues to be, innovative
- many of the "best" moral views have worked their way into Western society (either directly from Judaism, or via Jesus who had many teachings straight from the Tanach or Talmud)
- the style of the Talmud, in terms of debate and logical reasoning, is echoed in the common law systems of the Western world to an astonishing degree
- Judaism exists beyond the confines of the most insular Charedi communities, and it is the "best" of Talmudic moral teachings that tend to be pasted on

Trust me, I come from a background of identifying all the negative stuff from any legal system, history, or prominent person. The first female lawyer in Canada, Clara Brett Martin, happened to be a nasty anti-semite. Thomas Jefferson impregnated his slave. There are a zillion and one ways in which to argue that the Western legal system and courts are hopelessly racist/sexist/classist/heterosexist/ableist or what have you, and certainly plenty of horrible precedents in the common law system. I'll be interested in your views once you finish 1st year at law school. And yet...despite all of this, there are some pearls, some sparks of wisdom, some contributions of value. Clara Brett Martin may be rolling in her grave at the thought of it, but her lousy attitude doesn't change the fact that she paved the way for lots of Jewish women like me to become lawyers. By the same token, even if there are passages in the Talmud which aren't great toward other groups, the great moral teachings of Judaism have contributed to humanity, Jewish and Gentile alike.

Can you take the best, leave the rest?

JRKmommy

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-05-07 01:13 pm UTC (link)
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, people tell me this frequently. I try.

In this case, it would be easier if the people running the class did not have an obvious agenda. So say a similar class was given by a non religious/semi-religious professor at a local university and the goal of the class would be to expose people to the Talmud and ethical issues as discussed in one of the oldest bodies of law on the subject, I would have no problem with it whatsoever. In fact, there are many classes like that at universities all over. JLI, however, is a lubavitch outreach group and as, such, has one agenda only. To send people to Machon Chana and Morristown. They would not be happy to hear that you think most people who take their class don't end up doing that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]24816, 2008-05-07 02:33 pm UTC
JLI does not send people to Machon Chana or Morristown - (Anonymous), 2008-05-07 07:38 pm UTC
Re: JLI does not send people to Machon Chana or Morristown - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-07 07:53 pm UTC
Re: JLI does not send people to Machon Chana or Morristown - (Anonymous), 2008-05-07 09:26 pm UTC
Re: JLI does not send people to Machon Chana or Morristown - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-05-08 10:15 am UTC
Re: JLI does not send people to Machon Chana or Morristown - (Anonymous), 2008-05-11 09:51 pm UTC
Re: JLI does not send people to Machon Chana or Morristown - (Anonymous), 2008-05-08 09:39 pm UTC
Morristwon and MC - (Anonymous), 2008-05-11 04:08 am UTC
Re: Morristwon and MC - (Anonymous), 2008-05-11 09:48 pm UTC

(60 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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