onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2008-07-13 21:23:00
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Entry tags:chosen nation, gemara, gentiles, hashkafa, rabbis

Am Hanivchar, again
 
There is a popular argument for the veracity of Judaism and it goes something like this. 

The Jews have survived for so long in galus. A small nation, a tiny fraction of the world's population, statistically speaking, the Jews should have long ago been assimilated or destroyed. And yet, through all the Crusades, Inquisitions, Pogroms and Holocausts, they still survive and even flourish! All the while, the nations who have persecuted them vanish into the pages of history books. Where is the great Roman Empire? Where are the mighty Greek rulers? All gone, while the Jews survive. Here is another version of the same.

 I am sure you have heard this argument in many forms over many years. It is quite appealing emotionally. The Jews are a small nation who defy all odds and survive. This somehow proves that they are indeed the Chosen Nation and that the Torah is true. Presumably because it is impossible for the Jews to have survived under these conditions if God did not will it to be so and the only reason God could will the survival of the Jews is because they are to be a beacon of light for everyone else.  Some people like to tack on something about how this also means that Orthodoxy is the way to go because the Conservatives and Reform movements will become completely assimilated over the next few decades. 

 So this past Shabbos, I was at a table where someone mentioned the Karaite moshavim in Israel. I looked it up a bit and found that the Karaite sect, the small minority who took the Torah literally and discounted the entire Talmud, managed to survive throughout the diaspora just fine and are now doing well in Israel. They apparently have 11 shuls and 30, 000 members, if this article is accurate.  

So now let us apply the logic of the previous argument to the Karaim. They are even a smaller fraction of the Jews. They were rejected by Orthodox Judaism itself.  They were persecuted right along with the other Jews. And hey,  despite all the negative press and extreme adversity, they survived! This must mean that the Karaite way is the Chosen Derech. Right?




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thanks OSM i loved this.
(Anonymous)
2008-07-14 10:34 am UTC (link)
so where are the romans? in rome, the rest of italy and the little italies of the world!
where are the greeks? why? in greece of course and the greektowns across the globe.
where are the egyptians? in cairo and the rest of egypt all of 81,000,000
still on their land and many many others in diasporas extending from the eastern mediterranean and across the globe to the persian gulf.
oh! and the great persian empire? well still trying to eradicate us.
the only thing that changed, is that zeus, jupiter, amon and ra are now mythology. these nations all turned into monotheistic religions of one sort or another. they evolved. just like we did evolve. our judaism today (yes even the orthodox) is no longer that of moses or david. the latest and most significant evolution -out of monotheism- is the adoption of qabbalah and it's pantheon of angels and demons along with a g-d with many ways to manifest himself.
hey, even the zoroastrians are still around worshiping the same deities that influenced our own g-d's identity.
Eshkol Hakofer

(Reply to this)


[info]antidos
2008-07-14 11:36 am UTC (link)
Thanks OSM !

Now tell me how you answer to the question of recently brainwashed person - what is the sense of life ( of course she knows it is doing mitzvos and listening to rabbi and gathering nitzozos kedushe )

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-14 02:49 pm UTC (link)
If you are not religious, you can still believe that your purpose is to leave the world a better place than you found it, establish a legacy, etc. These are not ideas unique to Jews :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Aren’t you glad that Karaite survived?
[info]24816
2008-07-14 07:02 pm UTC (link)
I am also looking forward to welcome all the lost Jewish souls, including 10 tribes and haskala.
Please note that Jews preserved pretty much same religion (and Judaism preserved Jews), only the Land piece was missing for a while. And how many wondering nations preserved their identity? I can only think of Gypsies, who are much younger, and would look into their DNA as well.
With other nations it’s just the opposite – populations and/or believes shifted considerably. Only land stood put.
-FI

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Aren’t you glad that Karaite survived?
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-15 01:44 am UTC (link)
your argument works only if Karaites are considered Jews and they are not, as far as I know.

Correct me if I am wrong.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Aren’t you glad that Karaite survived?
[info]24816
2008-07-15 02:26 am UTC (link)
I thought that they don’t have to undergo the same scrutiny during conversion?
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ruchel
2008-07-14 08:03 pm UTC (link)
I'm under the impression that the Karaites used the "we're Jewish but not really" and were left alone by the Germans... unless I am mixing up with another kind?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bringing_peace
2008-07-15 12:34 am UTC (link)
may I ask

1. how did the Germans get to Karaites - weren't they all in Israel at the time?

2. what does this have to do with the original post? - I just don't see the connection.....

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-15 01:27 am UTC (link)
I don't know of any group that used the "we're Jewish but not really" argument and were left alone by Nazis. They don't seem like the type that would have gone for that sort of reasoning.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]alexcohn
2008-07-23 11:42 am UTC (link)
This happened at least in one location, Lithuania (Lita). There was a Karaite community around the town Trakai (Troki), and when the Nazis came, they wanted to know whether the Karaim should be exterminated with the Jews. The story goes, they asked a respected Orthodox rabbi. This rabbi, having understood the bottom line, lied(*) that Karaim were not Jewish, and hence helped these Jews survive.
-----------
(*) - the Karaim in Russia (in Crimea and Lita) used to claim, in XIX century, that they were not Jewish, or to be more precise that the Jews were not Jewish, while the Karaim were. The "rabbinic" Jews were arguing the opposite.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-23 11:52 am UTC (link)
Again, I don't see how Karaim are Jewish acc. to halacha, if they hold to patrilineal descent.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]alexcohn
2008-07-23 12:19 pm UTC (link)
from http://www.daat.ac.il/encyclopedia/value.asp?id1=2319:

קראים כישראלים הם, ואסור לומר להם שיעשו מלאכה ביו"ט (משפטי שמואל סי' קל"ד בנימין זאב סי' ת"ו ות"ז)

Also, http://www.kipa.co.il/ask/show/147257 cites Ovadia Yosef to say that Karaites may marry Jews without giur, but after they "learn our prayers and customs".

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]24816
2008-07-23 04:49 pm UTC (link)
thanks for update!
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]antidos
2008-07-24 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Go to any rabbanut and try to marry a karaite without giyur :) Don't make me laugh.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]bringing_peace
2008-07-15 12:47 am UTC (link)
The survival of a Jew IS a miracle if you take into the consideratioin the constant persecution.

In addition, you may want to add a paragraph or two about the disproportinate attantion, payed to the Jews throughout the history and how the Jews affect the history despite the small numbers.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-15 01:23 am UTC (link)
The point is that just because some group survives, doesn't mean much about the reason that they survived and doesn't point to the veracity of their beliefs. The Karaites survived, most frum Jews don't even consider them Jews in the first place and they certainly don't believe that they survived because the Karaite's very existence is miraculous. So why should we believe the same about Jewish survival?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]bringing_peace
2008-07-15 01:39 am UTC (link)
just because some group survives

you can't call it "just" survives.
constantly killed, chased, robbed, etc.
it isn't "JUST".

there are very, very few nations (gypsies and that's about it) who can claim similar fate.

But the impact on the world can't be disputed (as far as I know).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-15 01:44 am UTC (link)
That is my point. The Karaites survived, even though they were killed, chased, robbed, etc. So what. The Karaites are apikorsim and not even considered Jews by most people. We cannot learn anything out from the fact of survival despite the odds.

Impact on the world... remember,those were not the frum Jews impacting the world. The frum rabbonim do not allow most people to study science, nevermind accept the Nobel prize in physics and math. So I also never understood this argument- the fact that many of the nonreligious Jews achieve a lot in science and math leads you to conclude what about frumkeit and how?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]bringing_peace
2008-07-15 01:58 am UTC (link)
The Karaites survived, even though they were killed, chased, robbed, etc. So what. The Karaites are apikorsim and not even considered Jews by most people. We cannot learn anything out from the fact of survival despite the odds.

yes, we can learn.
we can learn that out of hundreds of nations, tribes, nationalities, etc. very few retained their identity when placed in dire conditions.
And ask "Why."

Impact on the world... remember,those were not the frum Jews impacting the world.

Up to a certain point most of the Jews were frum, and they impacted the history in many ways. Still do, frum or not.

I also never understood this argument- the fact that many of the nonreligious Jews achieve a lot in science and math leads you to conclude what about frumkeit and how?

But somehow frumkeit produces ppl who do all these things. Keep in mind, that if not for religion, there wouldn't have been any Jews around.

The frum rabbonim do not allow most people to study science, nevermind accept the Nobel prize in physics and math.

Let's re-phrase that to SOME frum Rabbonim, ok?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-15 02:01 am UTC (link)
okay, some frum rabbonim. I will agree with you on that one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

OSM, 'bringing_peace' seems to agree that.....
(Anonymous)
2008-07-15 12:53 pm UTC (link)
the following canard is meaningless: "....All the while, the nations who have persecuted them vanish into the pages of history books. Where is the great Roman Empire? Where are the mighty Greek rulers? All gone, while the Jews survive."
it is the :"But the impact on the world can't be disputed" argument that survives!
the romans? still around, the greeks? still around, the egyptians? still around. the germans y'sh? still around.
they are all still around.
what we have left to brag about, is that we have a disproportionate number of frum nobel laureates! (the other jewish laureates wouldn't count for the sake of religious argument).
there is our proof!
PS: In addition to the qaraites, i would have mentioned the Shomronim, but ooopthy, no nobel there either.
Eshkol Hakofer

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: OSM, 'bringing_peace' seems to agree that.....
[info]bringing_peace
2008-07-15 02:46 pm UTC (link)
thanks for the support!

(the other jewish laureates wouldn't count for the sake of religious argument).

by the way, I think non-religious count as well, as it indicates that there is something different about this tiny nation.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: OSM, 'bringing_peace' seems to agree that.....
(Anonymous)
2008-07-16 12:54 pm UTC (link)
Don't mention it 'bringing peace',
though i must say, I offered no support. i think the matter of bechira is totally misunderstood or misrepresented.
Bechira is the privilege of serving G-d lishmah. It does not bestow any superiority, nor renders one any more deserving or more clever.
The laureates are great but they have nothing (at all) to do with the jewish faith. Nobel is Nobel and judaism is judaism. the distinction should be clear. This is very clear in the scriptures, not so in rabbinic litterature for some reason, we have been overusing the bechira peptalk.
For the sake of simplicity, I will bring a few references from 1 pereq of Devarim only (though there are many many other references).
See Devarim 28:1
And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy G-d, to observe to do all His commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy G-d will set thee on high above all the nations of the earth.
Note, i f u listen and observe, then and only then Gd will set thee etc...
See Devarim 28:9 The LORD will establish thee for a holy people unto Himself, as He hath sworn unto thee; if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in His ways.
Note, he will establish thee i f u keep the commandments. Only if.
See Devarim 28:13 And the LORD will make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if thou shalt hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them;
Note, again only i f thou shalt hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them. Only if.
See Devarim 28:15 15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee.
Note what happens again, i f , we don't.

I think our continuous harping on bechira is counterproductive. Somebody who is not passing with flying colours on "all the commandments" as directed, would be wrong to sing and dance with "ata bechartanu mikol haamim ahavta otanu veratzita banu". If we look at mirrors and or around us in shul, how many of us today qualify to be "chosen" all over again?
Consequently, the order of the day, is tshuva and humility. Nobel, is nothing.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

What's the challenge here?
(Anonymous)
2008-07-15 02:50 pm UTC (link)
The Karaites are also Jews; their survival is part of the greater miracle of Jewish survival. G-d chose the Jewish people for a destiny whether they are religious or not or participate or not.

It is innate and essential. No-one ever ceases to be a Jew if they are born as such. So what is your question?

I anticipate that after a semester or two in law school you will have acquired clearer critical thinking skills or have "washed out"

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: What's the challenge here?
[info]bringing_peace
2008-07-15 03:02 pm UTC (link)
The Karaites are also Jews; their survival is part of the greater miracle of Jewish survival.

how do gipcies fit into this picture? 12th tribe?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: What's the challenge here?
[info]24816
2008-07-15 03:07 pm UTC (link)
As I said above http://onionsoupmix.livejournal.com/106285.html?thread=3060013#t3060013 they might be part of 10 lost tribes. I would also look at “untouchables” – that might be ingenious scheme against assimilation.
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: What's the challenge here?
(Anonymous)
2008-07-15 03:17 pm UTC (link)
The Romany (Gypsy is -a pejorative term you should not use -it is like the N-word) are originally from India, and are descendants of the real Aryans (ironic). Their language, Romany is related to Sanskrit.

Their survival is based on their mobility - they never really settled anywhere until the 20th century. The Jewish people have settled in places then to be attacked, which makes it much harder to survive.

There are many other differences, though their are interesting parallels to their use of their own courts and the the proscription on intermarriage

I don't get your next question -the 12th tribe is Benjamin.
If you meant the "13th tribe" -the Khazars, this is a term coined by Aurthur Koestler and is an entirely fanciful one. there is no proof of any connection between the Romany and Khazars

By the way, all these proofs are useless on their own , if you add the historical thing to many other aspects of Judaism, you get a sense of truth. There is no any one proof.

I would say that whoever believes Judaism is verified based on one idea is silly, whoever denies the evidence of all the ideas is equally so.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: What's the challenge here?
[info]bringing_peace
2008-07-15 03:47 pm UTC (link)
Gypsy is -a pejorative term you should not use

now where I come from. there also may be more of them then you think.

Their survival is based on their mobility

partially. they also were persecuted by many, including hitler.

I don't get your next question -the 12th tribe

that was ironic. skip it.

By the way, all these proofs are useless on their own ,

never argued w/ that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: What's the challenge here?
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-15 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Karaites are not considered Jews by most rabbonim as far as I know. I will try to find a source. You also try to find a source for your position.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: What's the challenge here?
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-07-15 10:21 pm UTC (link)
Karaites would not be considered Jews as they believe in patrilinear descent and have very loose boundaries for conversions, as per their own rules:
http://www.karaite-korner.org/karaite_faq.shtml

So your argument is faulty at the outset. And I am most certainly looking forward to acquiring clearer critical thinking skills in law school. Or washing out.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Untouchables
(Anonymous)
2008-07-15 03:21 pm UTC (link)
The Dalit ("Untouchables" is worse than the n-word) are descendants of the peoples conquered in the Aryan invasion of India, many years before the 10 tribes were driven out .

Here is an article that should help
http://trinicenter.com/WorldNews/castesystem.htm

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Untouchables
[info]24816
2008-07-15 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Interesting, so it could be just the other way around. Thanks!
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Karaites are Jews
(Anonymous)
2008-07-15 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Maimonides in Hilchot Mamrim says we should do everything we can to bring them back to the fold. Not a word about conversion. He lived in Egypt, next to the largest Karaite community in existence at the time.

In Lithuania, on shabbat, in the winter the Karaites buried themselves to their necks in earth to survive 24 hours without fire.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Karaites are Jews
(Anonymous)
2008-07-31 04:53 pm UTC (link)
re: the original post. karaism is not as old as judaism. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism. of course, defining when groups start and end is always hard. (as above, what happened to the romans? they still live in italy and are now catholic...)

the newness of karaism is more relevant to this: the fact that maimonides did not mention conversion does not mean much about whether or not it would be required after 1000 years of patrilineal descent or other failure to monitor jewishness...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]malenkiy_scot
2008-07-15 03:27 pm UTC (link)
They were persecuted right along with the other Jews

and by the other Jews

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