onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2008-10-04 21:08:00
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Entry tags:chabad, gemara, gentiles

The Talmud on Gentiles



So here is a Antisemitic website which tries to prove that the gemara subscribed to the doctrine of Jewish Supremacy. I am sure you have all seen these, there are so many of these on the web.

And here is an Orthodox Jewish website trying to reject these accusations and explain the gemara's statements to make them more palatable. Okay, that's to be expected as well.

Yep, and here is an Orthodox Jewish website trying to prove that the gemara ( as well as other sources) did, in fact, subscribe to the doctrine of Jewish Supremacy. Ever seen that before? No?  

 Well, then here are some highlights: 
 
The Kuzari explains that there are four levels in creation: inanimate, plant, vegetation, and human and above that, in a category all their own, are Jews. For the mystically inclined among us - gentiles are from the three impure kelipos like all forbidden things...

Gemara Bava Basra 10b... R' Yehoshua said, "tzedaka meromem goy" refers to the Jews .. and "v'chesed l'umim chatas" means all the tzedaka and chesed that the goyim do is a cheit for them because they do it only to prolong their rule as it says [verse in Daniel]...

We do not desecrate the Shabbos to save gentiles...

Many meforshim say that "beloved is man for he has been created with tzelem (elokim) is referring to JEWS...Even a Jew who sins is better than one who lacks mitzvos [I.e. a non-Jew] ...

Furthermore, if offered the choice, a Jew would not choose to be on the level of those who lack mitzvos [I.e. non-Jew], just as a human being who is sick and suffers, if given the choice to be a horse or fish or bird, although these all live contentedly without suffering ... would not choose this...

And it only says Jews are G-d's children while on this forum, this thread is just one example, posters mistakenly say that all of humanity are children of G-d. And many meforshim explain "adam" as referring to the Jewish people as was posted earlier which fits with what it says everywhere else in Tanach etc. that Jews are G-d's beloved...

There are numerous maamorei Chazal that says otherwise, that we are morally superior. For example, Yevamos 79a that Jews, by their nature, are rachmonim, baishonim, and gomlei chasadim (compassionate, bashful, and doers of kindness). Rambam quotes this in Hilchos Isurei Bi'ah, 19:17....

 IOW, it's not that they are sub-human, it's that they are merely human while we, in addition to being human, have an extra, Divine dimension.

All of the posters who subscribe to this bigotry on that site are Chabad, one is a head- moderator and another is a shlucha.

So here's a shout out to all you thousands of people who are going to be mekareved by well-meaning Lubavitchers this year.

You will meet lots of wonderful people, beautiful families and even good friends. You will be impressed by their sincerity, their love for life and their joy in religion. You will be jealous and you will want your life to be so rich and so fulfilling and you will desperately follow them and emulate them and adopt their customs and holidays and you will send your kids to their schools and learn sichos with them and dance at hakafos in their shuls.
 
But know that these people, the vast majority of them at least,  are bigoted and ethnocentric and believe in the moral and spiritual superiority of the Jew over everyone else. Yes, there is a minority. These  are the shluchim at college campuses or other places where bigotry is not looked upon well and they tend to subscribe to a watered down version of these views, adopting an apologetic position when possible and trying to interpret their sources in the best possible light, twisting words beyond their basic meanings.
 
Go and be mekareved. But do so with an honest understanding of what you are getting into. Before it is too late.



 




(16 comments) - (Post a new comment)


(Anonymous)
2008-10-05 03:36 am UTC (link)
This is what holds me back from pursuing an Orthodox conversion. I worry I will never belong. My world is full of gentiles, my family is gentiles, I will never be able to think like this. My non Jewish family and friends have done tremendous acts of kindness for me at personal cost.

I love Judaism, the language, the law, the ritual and God. But is there a place for a highly educated, disabled goyires in that world? I don't know. And this stops me.

I'm a member at imamother and what I read there scares me.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]antidos
2008-10-05 05:25 am UTC (link)
You are lucky you read this before you underwent conversion.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]happyduck1979
2008-10-05 06:03 am UTC (link)
I am Orthodox, and I believe everything written above is inappropriate and worse than that, dangerous. I come from the school of thought that there are two types of people in this world. Those trying to bring goodness, and those trying to bring evil. (Incidentally, I do not believe there are people in the middle. Even if you claim to be in the middle, you are in truth only fooling yourself.)

I fear that that those who wrote the above came to write it out of trying to do good. They confused "Jewish" with "good" and did not understand that one could be good without being Jewish.

As much of it was written in times where, if you were Jewish, you may not have seen other people as being good (you know, while they were killing you and shoving you into ghettos, and taxing you by beard length) I can *almost* understand though why they would think of anyone not JEwish as not good.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]antidos
2008-10-05 01:56 pm UTC (link)
I can *almost* understand though why they would think of anyone not JEwish as not good.

Well, this is the result of Jewish school upbringing. This is what happens when kids are risen in Jewish cocoon and their contacts with "goyim down the street" are severely limited. Add to this Torah brainwashing, and here we go.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

funny...
[info]schwevy
2008-10-05 04:19 pm UTC (link)
funny how ima mother did not let me join but let my friend's husband and someone who is not yet jewish (only relevent because i could not tell them what a specific bracha was and they told me unless i was a fully observant woman and jew, i could not be on ima mother!)

they are obviously full of it.

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[info]ruchel
2008-10-05 04:20 pm UTC (link)
You may not be accepted by everyone, but you should know they are supposed to!

Also you may have to try different circles between finding yours, but this is the same for anyone different from the circle's mold, even FFB or born Jewish, etc.

Not all rabbis will tell you it's a problem to be close to your non Jewish family or friends as long as they respect the new you. But before converting with rabbi/community/country so and so you may want to check this...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

tough too read, but thanks
(Anonymous)
2008-10-05 06:46 am UTC (link)
yep - not always easy to read anything bad about what one believes in, but these are the facts. the good news is that they are only the facts for those who subscribe to them - that is, jews have always had lots of opinions! and so, for every jew who believes 'x', you can find one who believes 'y'. in fact, the ratio on this one is 95 - 5, in my opinion.

elie wiesel, maimonides and many others believe strongly that the more jewish one is (whatever that might mean for you), the more universalistic one is. it is just part of being really jewish.

so, don't let the naysayers get you down. do mitzvahs, tzedakah and hessed (Gd's commandments, righteous giving, and acts of loving kindness).

arnie draiman
www.draimanconsulting.com

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: tough too read, but thanks
[info]antidos
2008-10-05 01:57 pm UTC (link)
one who believes 'y'. in fact, the ratio on this one is 95 - 5, in my opinion.

Weird, where are these 95% ? Somehow imamother houses only other 5% :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Hello – is anybody home?
[info]24816
2008-10-06 11:37 pm UTC (link)
Gentiles already know that Jews are different.
Are we keeping Judaism to ourselves? Aren’t you sick of this libel?
Our sources describe ancient idol worshippers, not our contemporary followers.
Nations are inferior, not individuals, because individual gentiles can reach level of High Priest on Yom Kippur. Just look at the tiny imperfect Israel – how they strive to consider everyone while defending themselves. What other nation is so masochistic?
Human race’s potential is most fully expressed in Judaism.
As law school is more school than Social Sciences similarly a school child is more fully human than Mowgli.
Smart people are rare in every culture so it makes sense to invest time in studying and quoting them, for a change.
http://www.7kanal.com/article.php3?id=250715
-FI

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Hello – is anybody home?
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-10-07 01:05 am UTC (link)
Our sources describe ancient idol worshippers, not our contemporary followers.

well, if you read the thread on imamother, the moderator insists that the ancient idol worshippers part was made up for the censors so that the talmud would be able to be published but REALLY it means all goyim. Argue with her, not me.
As law school is more school than Social Sciences similarly a school child is more fully human than Mowgli
I'm not sure of your point here. Are you agreeing with the bigots that Jews are "more human" and everyone else is "less human"?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

On various occasions I used to call my own children “waste of perfect human material”.
[info]24816
2008-10-07 06:22 pm UTC (link)
It is not bigotry to think that whoever wastes their life is not really living, perhaps you can call it metaphor, but not bigotry.
If you don’t want to learn about social work from Russian grandmas (and argue with them) why do you learn about Judaism from imamothers (and argue with them)?
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: On various occasions I used to call my own children “waste of perfect human material”.
(Anonymous)
2008-10-08 01:44 pm UTC (link)
yes FI does have a point here.
As for the one who didn't get onto imamother...don't worry. Infact, they probably did you a favour.
R

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Hello – is anybody home?
[info]hannahsarah
2008-10-10 03:47 pm UTC (link)
*faints*

I actually agree with FI on this one. Mark this day on your calendar, people!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2008-10-16 01:59 pm UTC (link)
You know my issues with Motek.

I have absolutely no desire at all to follow her beliefs.

As you know, she came very close to pushing me off the edge (and I previously published this on imamother), but removing myself from that site and finding myself immersed in the real world helped bring me back.

Motek is not the last word on Orthodox Judaism. She's not even the last word on Chabad. She is someone who obviously wants to feel superior simply by birth, and she selectively quotes her sources to support her own particular world view. My beliefs have nothing to do with her, even though I consider myself Orthodox and even attend a Chabad shul.

(Reply to this)

Don't be too surprised...
[info]suitepotato.blogspot.com
2008-12-01 10:37 pm UTC (link)
...it's a feature of the human race. We like to feel special, but we like to feel protected by anonymity. We want to be important, but not by ourselves. We want answers, even if we have to make them up ourselves. Religion works this way. We want to believe we are special, that we have the answers, and everyone else, no matter what our nagging conscience says, are at best mistaken fools. At worst, unbelieving heretics. We have no logical rational expectation of anyone agreeing with us, but we take as personal when they don't, even if we never bothered proselytizing to them at all. (Some) Christians believe themselves alone saved from damnation. (Some) Muslims believe themselves alone party to the perfected word of G-d. Etc. It's important because religion is a framework for sharing faith and faith is an irrational flat out choice of belief which doesn't require proof, but is merely the purest expression of free will by a thinking being much as it is for G-d. Given how little we like being told what to think, yet constantly clamor for the opinion of others so we can choose to agree IF WE WANT, you get an idea why G-d might like the almost begging nature of prayers, but doesn't respond to demands AND still listens to the human race. This faith thing being such a critical core piece of humans, it's important to capture the agreement fully, hence show yourself as the one-stop shopping source for the answers. Every religion does that. Of course, a bit of culturally ingrained victimhood is always good for a few tweaks and Jews haven't been on the A-list anywhere in well, forever. Even in Israel there is religious strife between the religious and not religious. Muslims are at each others' throats over tribal and ethnic differences (Shia vs. Sunni, Arab vs. Everyone, etc.). Christians in the US are busy raping themselves as their irreligious offspring who still genuflect at crosses automatically spew venom at church and pulpit and parishioner. Put it all together and everyone of every religion holds disdain of some kind for "those other people". Whoever they are.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Don't be too surprised...
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-12-01 11:56 pm UTC (link)
I know, I just think it's so ironic that so many people try to convince others that Judaism does not subscribe to this bigotry, but there are many orthodox Jews who will admit it openly...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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