onionsoupmix: Moshiach

onionsoupmix (

onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2008-10-09 22:02:00

Entry tags:

gentiles, moshiach

Moshiach

After reading this, I really don't want Moshiach to come. Apparently we will all have to dress in a particular way, will no longer be able to learn anything but Torah and will have to have all our manual labor done by gentiles. It's a good thing I stopped davening a long time ago.

(60 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	beaniekins 2008-10-10 02:45 am UTC (link)
	I just like that at the very bottom, her signature is to ask for mechila if she's upset anyone. Awesome. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2008-10-10 03:00 am UTC (link)
	Well, it doesn't matter if she has offended gentiles or those who read secular books or use computers. Those people don't count, I'm sure you know. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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beaniekins, 2008-10-10 03:08 am UTC

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beaniekins, 2008-10-10 03:09 am UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 12:49 pm UTC

	llennhoff 2008-10-10 02:59 am UTC (link)
	Having watched the men at one of the shuls in town try to put up a sukkah, I can get behind having manual labor done by gentiles. Either that or get us some handyman training! (Reply to this)

	mindycl 2008-10-10 03:02 am UTC (link)
	You really didnt know that when Moshiach comes the world will be only torah-based and there wont be a need for secular gadgetry? Think back to the times of the bais hamikdash. Sure,we'll have electricity, but we won't need TV anymore. (Reply to this) (Thread)

onionsoupmix
2008-10-10 03:20 am UTC (link)

Mindy, I like TV. I like my secular books. I like my secular gadgetry- washing machine, dishwasher, lights, flushing toilets, etc. I don't want to live in a world where I have gentile servants doing that for me. I don't want to be Amish either.

Personally, I think the idea of moshiach is nice for the vision of peace, etc. that it provides. If we all have to go back to the times of the Beis Hamikdash and start slaughtering animals and not touching anything a menstrual woman touched, no thanks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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mindycl, 2008-10-10 04:40 am UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 05:06 am UTC

happyduck1979
2008-10-10 03:37 am UTC (link)

No offense, but says who? They did have things for entertainment. So entertainment changes. We read about music and dance as early as the Torah itself. Why should music and ipods go away? We learn about news traveling by messenger service and signal- so how about the news paper and tv and radio and the internet?

More than that, electronics are often educational. Why should learn to read programs, and appropriate games (even such things as electronic chess) disappear?

I agree that perhaps the "shmutz" of thet world might go, but that does not mean every technological advance is going to go out the window!

I do not understand people who think it will. surely you believe that all technological advances are given to us by Hashem to use and enjoy properly? Granted there are right ways and wrong ways to use everything- but according to this view all the torah websites and shiurim for in the car are "necessary evils" rather that positive advancements that have helped make this work a more torah-friendly place!

How about advances in other fields? Are they going to disapear as well? Can't learn from books if there are no more "dangerous" printing presses. Everyone will be perfectly healthy so no need for medical advances, but how about other advances? Will irrigation technology be a thing of the past? I know, I know, Hashem will provide. How about hydroponics? New foods that did not exist in the times of the first Beit Hamikdash? Apricots?

It is one thing to say Hashem will provide and another thing entirely to take away all the things he has given in order to provide for us!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

mindycl, 2008-10-10 04:42 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-10-10 04:31 am UTC (link)

Shalhevet, being staunchly Litvish, didn't include this part in her description:

"But there is an even deeper connection -- continues the Rebbe in the above talk -- of women to the messianic era. Kabbalistic and chassidic teachings have a special understanding of the role of the feminine in the Era of Redemption and the World-to-Come. Then, say the classical sources, all the "feminine" aspects of the world will emerge from their concealment and diminution in the unredeemed world and rise to the highest stature.5 That is the deeper reason -- says the Rebbe -- that in our generation the innovations and increase in Torah study connect to and are emphasized in relation to women. The effect of their study is also great, for as the Talmud says in a well-known line: "In the merit of the righteous women of that generation the Jews were redeemed from Egypt."6 And so, the Rebbe concludes, in the merit of the righteous women of our generation, may the full and complete redemption come.

Many other chassidic leaders and thinkers, including his own predecessors in the Chabad movement, write of the time of the redemption in these kabbalistic terms as the elevation of the "feminine" side (Malchut or Nukvah, as it is called in the literature)." [Taken from "Putting Women in the Picture" article on chabad.org]

In other words - there is a view that feminism is a harbinger of the Messianic era, in which sexism will disappear and the feminine will be elevated. Thought you might look forward to that a bit more.

JRKmommy

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2008-10-10 05:11 am UTC (link)
	yeah, I've seen that stuff, nekeiva tesoveiv gever and all that. I think it's just one of those things chabad came up with to make them more appealing to modern women. Now they can say that the feminist movement is actually part of the unfolding geulah. I'd love to find out if men will still say "shelo asani isha" in moshiach's time, though. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-10-10 03:02 pm UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 03:12 pm UTC

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bringing_peace, 2008-10-29 06:22 am UTC

bringing_peace
2008-10-29 06:20 am UTC (link)

in our generation the innovations and increase in Torah study connect to and are emphasized in relation to women. The effect of their study is also great, for as the Talmud says in a well-known line: "In the merit of the righteous women of that generation the Jews were redeemed from Egypt."6 And so, the Rebbe concludes, in the merit of the righteous women of our generation, may the full and complete redemption come.

u know, the Jews were taken out of Egypt in the merit of righteous women even though there were no great advances in anything; learning geared towards women included.

I think the deeper reason for female education in Torah law today is pretty pathetic - we just have time. When women had to do EVERYTHING by hand and from scratch they had no time for this. Today we do and it is a great kindness of H' (at least to me) that we're able to (as apposed to some circles where they still don't).

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	antidos 2008-10-10 07:53 am UTC (link)
	Thanks a lot ! It sounds like an instruction for jews to report to a concentration camp. Whoever refuses will be dealt with harshly. (Reply to this)

	ruchel 2008-10-10 10:55 am UTC (link)
	I think when moshiach comes two things happen: - WE evolve big time, so we don't miss shmutz - problems will be solved, not created. So either we will evolve, or we don't understand the source, or G-d will solve it (from what a rabbi told me) (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2008-10-10 12:59 pm UTC (link)
	WE evolve big time, so we don't miss shmutz Is there still going to be a sex drive? I guess not. It really doesn't sound very appealing, does it? No sex, no tv, no secular reading books, no work. All we are going to do is learn torah all day. Learning Torah is nice, but not that nice that I would want to do it 24/7. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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ruchel, 2008-10-10 02:33 pm UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 02:37 pm UTC

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mahpitom, 2008-10-12 11:32 am UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-12 01:11 pm UTC

	ymarkov 2008-10-10 01:44 pm UTC (link)
	At least this lady has thought about it in detail. Her vision is not that appealing, but who says it's right? (Reply to this) (Thread)

onionsoupmix
2008-10-10 01:58 pm UTC (link)

Well, she has a lot of sources to back herself up apparently. The sources that oppose hers pretty much acknowledge that we don't know what will happen until it happens. So if someone wants a detailed version of what is likely to occur, they have only her take to go on. If you disagree, what would be a detailed version that sharply contrasted with hers and what are your sources?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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ymarkov, 2008-10-10 03:02 pm UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 03:14 pm UTC

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ymarkov, 2008-10-10 04:19 pm UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 04:45 pm UTC

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antidos, 2008-10-13 01:56 am UTC

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ymarkov, 2008-10-13 02:28 am UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-13 06:08 am UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-10-13 01:12 pm UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-13 01:42 pm UTC

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ymarkov, 2008-10-13 04:45 pm UTC

Praying instead of slaughtering - (Anonymous), 2008-10-15 10:42 pm UTC

Re: Praying instead of slaughtering -

ymarkov, 2008-10-16 08:29 pm UTC

You just failed your legal exam.

24816
2008-10-10 02:06 pm UTC (link)

As a lawyer you should’ve said, “I don't want THIS KIND OF Moshiach to come”
Also, lawyers are supposed to research experts’ credentials and they wouldn’t waste their costly time on grandmother tales’ sites.

If you didn’t waste your time on this nonsense, you read Rav Kook’s vision of all inclusive world’s teshuva and realize that it would be nothing that we can comprehend in our current state.
But if you want grandma’s speculations, I would think that most of current extreme attractions will not be any more appealing than pre-school toilet jokes or food indulgencies, so TV and other tools should not be any more threatening than cars or any other instruments.

Meanwhile, if you are heading in anti direction, why do you object matching shidduch for your girls?

-FI

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: You just failed your legal exam.

onionsoupmix
2008-10-10 02:13 pm UTC (link)

This is an intelligent, educated chareidi woman. She can quote you sources back and forward. She is not to be underestimated. Many, many people think like her and they have what to base themselves on.

I ask you what I asked Markov- if you have a detailed version based on Rav Kook or anyone else, please post it. Otherwise, the only counter to this kind of "vision" is that we don't really know what will happen and people don't like to hear that, they would rather a more detailed account.

If I don't really know what will happen, if I realize that Moshiach is not something I can even comprehend in my current state, why would I pray for it?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You just failed your legal exam. -

24816, 2008-10-10 05:17 pm UTC

Re: You just failed your legal exam. -

onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 05:19 pm UTC

Re: You just failed your legal exam. -

24816, 2008-10-10 05:31 pm UTC

Re: You just failed your legal exam. -

onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 05:40 pm UTC

Re: You just failed your legal exam.
(Anonymous)
2008-10-10 02:54 pm UTC (link)

I'm going to totally shock myself and say, for the first time ever, that I agree with FI.

Sure, Shalhevet knows stuff....she knows exactly what her particular rabbi has taught her, which is very strict Litvish charedi vision of life which certainly differs in significant ways from what even other Orthodox Jews believe.

Remember how you discovered the wonders of the "Prof Who Doesn't Pretend to be the Word of G-d"? Well, you need to apply that approach to religious study as well. Only Hashem is Hashem. The ladies on imamother (even including me!) are not. The mere fact that someone appears to be able to quote things does not make them more intelligent or more correct than you - it simply means that they are very convinced about their position, and you would need to do some real homework if you wished to take them on in debate. Think for a moment about how you would make mincemeat of "X group of people are genetically smarter than Y group" types of arguments that are occasionally make by rogue academics, and then look at how some of the non-college educated women on that site seem to think "...but a college professor did a study, so it must be true." Don't be the religious flip side of those women!

JRKmommy

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You just failed your legal exam. -

onionsoupmix, 2008-10-10 03:19 pm UTC

	Re: You just failed your legal exam. (Anonymous) 2008-10-10 06:09 pm UTC (link)
	Meanwhile, if you are heading in anti direction, why do you object matching shidduch for your girls? Did I mention I have a son ? :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

I'm Praying For You
(Anonymous)
2008-10-10 02:24 pm UTC (link)

Don't worry, onionsoupmix, I am praying with all my might to the Flying Spaghetti Monster that when this great Moshiach comes, you and I are happily left behind, and that only world peace and love reach us, uniting us all together, Jews and non-Jews alike.
I am also fasting, since the Flying Spaghetti Monster is rather sadistic and appreciates when I feel pain for it.

Margo from http://deathintheballroom.blogspot.com/

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: I'm Praying For You onionsoupmix 2008-10-10 02:34 pm UTC (link)
	I love your blog, just read the God is soap post. That was ... uh... cleansing :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I'm Praying For You - (Anonymous), 2008-10-19 09:50 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-10-11 08:31 pm UTC (link)

ha ha ha. But seriously, why do you take what these people say seriously? I mean for a start she goes on about the ratzon Hashem as if she is an expert and G-d actually spoke to her and told her what S/He wants. Also if Mashiach is just learning torah all day and acting like angels, then i think we might as well be dead.
I had one lesson in sem which made Mashiach sound like some sort of era where everyone will be the same and it sounded like a very brainwashed dull existence where nothing actually happens and then i realised...it sounds like what the after world is probably like. So if Mashiach is like this, does that mean we actually all are really dead? So when it says the dead will rise from the grave, it will only seem like the dead are rising from the grave because we will suddenly see them due to ourselves being dead too.
The only other explanation i can come up with is that Mashiach will be a world with peace and no wars and no evil tyrants trying to blame everything on the jews. We will have Israel with out any security risks or anyone dying because someone in Gaza sent a bomb and i heard another theory that Israel will be the whole world and Jerusalem will be the actual country of Israel...if that is the case then no one is moving anywhere and we will just travel to Jerusalem every Yom Tov....which is what some lucky people can do anyway.
I don't know how the rising dead fit into this though and how would we feel about living forever? No cancer...no ageing illnesses...as for those who need anti depressents...maybe they will actually be told how to help themselves first instead of being given a tablet to begin with.

I personally pray for mashiach as i don't like seeing people die in bloody wars or mindless murderers killing people in the street.
As for the TV and internet...i think we will all have free choice still otherwise we might as well be angels rather than people.
I also pray for mashiach as we seem to have too many crooked Rabbis and the people are so blinded they don't see it.
R

(Reply to this)

	(Anonymous) 2008-10-11 11:24 pm UTC (link)
	I honestly thought that was tongue-in-cheek when I read it the first time. I'm still not quite sure she's serious. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2008-10-12 12:17 am UTC (link)
	No, she's serious. From the comments, you can tell. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

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mahpitom, 2008-10-12 11:42 am UTC

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onionsoupmix, 2008-10-12 01:19 pm UTC

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-10-12 06:21 pm UTC

	I'm Confused (Anonymous) 2008-10-12 09:07 pm UTC (link)
	I thought the imamother Chabad posters believe he came already. Is this referring to the Rebbes 2nd coming? (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: I'm Confused onionsoupmix 2008-10-13 12:26 am UTC (link)
	Moshiach is partially revealed. When he is fully revelealed (or when our eyes will be able to fully see the revelation) then all these wonderful things will take place! (Reply to this) (Parent)

Halucinations
(Anonymous)
2008-10-13 06:39 am UTC (link)

As opposing to you, I do doven and I do live in the Orthodox world (in the MO side, but Orthodox nevertheless.) Many years ago I had some encountering with another type of Meshihists, Zionists that is, the people who went to settle in Hebron and other such places. I remember vividly a conversation with one of their leaders, in which I tried to explain to him that if his people will not make it their business talk with ordinary Jews in the streets of Tel-Aviv, they will loose them and with them they will loose Hebron as well. The current situation shows that I was right to the money while the other guy who defended their being in Hebron rather then in Tel-Aviv was halucinating. He explained to me why HE must be were he is (Hebron) while OTHERS (unspecified and non-existing) should do the job in Tel-Aviv. That on itself was not that bad, just shortsighted, but then he showed me that he was really halucinating. He said, "there would be a day, that Eretz Yisrael would be in the hands of the Kedusha" and with a victorious smile he ended the conversation.
At that very moment I knew two things in almost absolute certainity:
a) that Hebron and the rest of the occupied territories are lost because the people who were interested in keeping them were a bunch of halucinating people and could not do anything serious to keep those territories, while for sure they would deepen the divide within the Jewish people.
b) that I do not really want to live in that Kedusha if it ever materialize.

The halucinating Shalhevet from Immamother is no different then my guy and she certainly won't achieve her goal... and it looks that both you, OS and me do not really want to live in her dreamland.

(Reply to this)

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