onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2009-01-04 04:16:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend  Next Entry
Entry tags:conservative, darfur, gentiles

Educate me, please.

Okay, all the Orthodox folks make fun of the Conservative and Reform. They are so crazy with their watered-down Judaism and odd interpretations of Tikkun Olam. They fight for silly things like women leining and wearing talleisim. They dilute tradition and encourage intermarriage, contributing to the assimilation of the Jewish people.

That said, I'd like you to find one Orthodox person who has achieved as much for 25,000 families as this one Conservative person has. Just one frum person who has permanently helped 25,000 families or more. Thanks very much.

I'm not saying there aren't any. I'm saying I don't know of any, so please educate me.


(25 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]livelife73
2009-01-05 02:18 am UTC (link)
one never knows the ripple effect of acts of chesed and mitzvahs

(Reply to this)


[info]bringing_peace
2009-01-05 02:31 am UTC (link)
I'm pretty sure there are plenty people, as tzedakos of all kinds are abundant in Orthodox world.

but how didn't you think of THE REBBI????

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 03:46 am UTC (link)
Well how many lives has he saved? How many rapes has he prevented? I'm sure he did many good spiritual things, but this woman invented this cooker and she has helped so many people to avoid starvation and harm.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]ymarkov
2009-01-05 04:04 am UTC (link)
How about that rebbe (a Holocaust survivor) who built a hospital in Haifa?

Or the founders of Yad Eliezer?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 04:27 am UTC (link)
Okay, good. Post the name of the Rebbe. Thanks.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]ymarkov
2009-01-05 02:39 pm UTC (link)
The Klausenburger Rebbe, Rabbi Yekutiel Yehudah Halberstam. See http://gefilte-fish.livejournal.com/453290.html

Also, Yad Eliezer's report says they assist about 50,000 families per year.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 03:16 pm UTC (link)
Thank you.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]arielsokolovsky
2009-01-07 05:25 am UTC (link)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 11:16 am UTC (link)
Also YE helps 6K families each month, probably mostly the same ones each time. Which is laudable but not on a similar scale, I think. Feel free to argue.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Why stratify?
(Anonymous)
2009-01-05 05:10 am UTC (link)
Why do I have to define her as Conservative? Why do I have to define Jews by denominations at all? All of them are artificial and irrelevant from a broad historic or textual perspective

Why can't I be proud -and send a check to help her along - knowing that she is a Jew who has been inspired by Jewish ideals to do a great Mitzvah.

Why all this obsession with labels?

YC

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Why stratify?
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 11:15 am UTC (link)
I'm very pleased not to label people, but that's not the way the world works. The derision shown by the frum towards the reform and conservative is pretty extreme consider the accomplishments of the latter with regards to humanities and scientific achievements. Of course, chabad pities them so maybe that's better...jk.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Why stratify?
[info]ymarkov
2009-01-05 02:36 pm UTC (link)
So your concern is not with the frum giving, but with its parochiality. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

(I agree that derision is not a good thing.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Why stratify?
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 03:18 pm UTC (link)
I am not bothered by frum people with regards to their chessed, why would I be? I am, however, constantly horrified at the level of hatred between the various groups. Apparently, there is a psak din that one is not allowed to attend a conservative shul, even for a bar mitzvah of a friend's child, or so I read. Some say it is even forbidden to step into their sanctuary, as with churches. It's ridiculous, imo.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Why stratify?
[info]ymarkov
2009-01-05 10:32 pm UTC (link)
+1

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Bias, bias, bias...
[info]24816
2009-01-05 06:06 pm UTC (link)
It is not fair to compare people who are well off (e.g. send their children to public schools) and people who are discriminated against and struggle to survive. And in survival mode by helping strangers first you would do nothing but spread yourself thin. For example, helping her own children is mother’s first responsibility. And don’t you think that it is easier to do dramatic gestures than carry the day-to-day burdens? http://jewishworldreview.com/jewish/ethicist_priority_in_charitable_giving.php3

Jews cannot take care of everyone, they rather set proper example, this way everyone should be taken care of.
Please note that in the ideal world pure Jewish guidance should help: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3439266,00.html

Still orthodox world is known for its charity. Just think about open door policy of people like Bo stoner Rebe, etc. Actually, I would say that anything that non-observant Jews do are simply leftovers of Jewish teaching.
Now, how could you forget that shluhim like Bombay Rabbi revive lost souls? And if you remember the founder of the movement also served rather selflessly…
There are plenty of observant people supporting religious schools http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0508/zweibel_summit.php3 and plenty of observant people in grassroots organizations that supply Israel with ambulances, etc.

And I don’t believe that you didn’t hear that conservatives are more charitable than leftists: http://www.michaelgraham.com/post/2008/08/21/He-Aint-Heavy-Hes-Well-SOMEBODYS-Brother.aspx
I hope you agree that orthodox Jews are more conservative...

As for going to other shuls, my Rabbi said that we can eat at friend’s bar-mitzvah, just cannot attend their services.

-FI

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Bias, bias, bias...
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 07:35 pm UTC (link)
1. Reviving lost souls and other spiritual endeavors are secondary to saving physical lives. That is why we can break shabbos to save a life. So please, everyone, no more examples of chabad who saves all our lost souls.

2.
Actually, I would say that anything that non-observant Jews do are simply leftovers of Jewish teaching.

Well, I could agree that both groups draw from the same set of teachings, but in no way could I agree that any chessed non-observant Jews do should be classified as "left-overs". As you can clearly see from this story, this woman by herself has done much more, way more for humanity, than the vast majority of frum people. If those are the leftovers, where is the Orthodox main course? Where are the millions we have saved from hunger and death? Where are all those nobel-winning cures and scientific inventions by frum researchers?

For example, helping her own children is mother’s first responsibility. And don’t you think that it is easier to do dramatic gestures than carry the day-to-day burdens? If the two activities conflict, this is a valid argument. If they don't, it is just an excuse. There aren't many places where Jewish women are at risk of starvation, rape or murder so there is no conflict between helping your own and others. Those tzedakos who feed the hungry in Israel do so almost as a direct result of the failure of the kollel systems to be self-sufficient.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Bias, bias, bias...
[info]24816
2009-01-05 07:53 pm UTC (link)
You cannot abandon your own kids even if they are not in physical danger, but as long as their other basic needs are not met, and some consider Jewish eduation quite vital.

I would say that Torah moral and its Jewish implementation, however imperfect, did more for humanity and much earlier than any Noble prize celebrity.

Ditto for lost souls – Rabbi in Bombay would snatch kids from drug dealerships and related dangers…

-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Bias, bias, bias...
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-05 08:02 pm UTC (link)
Judaism is the predecessor for both Christianity and Islam. How many people have been killed in the names of these three religions? Please include Amaleik and the 7 nations. Thanks. After you calculate that number, explain one more time how orthodox judaism did more for humanity than any other noble prize celebrity.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Bias, bias, bias...
[info]24816
2009-01-05 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Believe it or not, however imperfect, Judaism is the best.
And it still could be worse than Christianity and Islam.
http://www.organharvestinvestigation.net/
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-01-06 06:15 am UTC (link)
I'm not sure of his last name, but one could be Dr. Rick Hodas in Ethiopia.

Ichabod Chrain

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-06 06:29 am UTC (link)
I heard of him before, could you post more? He's the guy who goes there every summer or something?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Anonymous)
2009-01-06 07:11 am UTC (link)
I think his name is actually Hodes not Hodas. Check Failed Messiah from Jan 06. Reader's Digest also has an article about him on the net.

Since I'm here let me take this opportunity to suggest that if some of your readers want to do something positive along those lines, they can do it easily just by sending a few dollars worth of fly paper to US troops in Iraq, Africa or Afghanistan through the Any Soldier program. You can stop a lot of sickness that way.

Ichabod Chrain

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

[info]arielsokolovsky
2009-01-07 05:30 am UTC (link)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2009-01-08 09:37 am UTC (link)
Yad Eliezer helps tens of thousands of people every month.

Yad Sarah (a group that loans out medical equipment) has over 100 branches and helps tens of thousands of people every month.

Efrat has helped over 25,000 women who didn't want an abortion but felt they had no choice to keep their babies.

But in general I don't think chessed should be measured that way. Not to belittle helping families in Darfur in any way, but is working with others to raise money to help thousands avoid the possibility of rape a bigger chessed than working alone and risking your life to save dozens from near-certain death (for example, by confronting an armed terrorist)? What about families that have adopted multiple special-needs kids--is their contribution less than that of a woman who raised money for Darfur, just because fewer people are involved? They're giving a huge amount of their own time and money and energy, every day, for decades!

I'm also not sure what you mean by "all the Orthodox folks make fun of the Conservative and Reform." Almost every orthodox person I know disagrees with Conservative and Reform, but I don't know a single person who would say they're all bad people or would be surprised that there are some real baalei chessed in the C&R communities.

I don't agree that not attending their prayer services is hatred. I think Corrie ten Boom, Raoul Wallenberg and Dr. MLK Jr. were amazing, amazing people who risked their lives (and in the case of the latter two gave their lives) to make the world a better place for thousands and even millions of people. I still wouldn't go to church with them. Not because they're bad people and Christians should be mocked (they shouldn't), but because I don't agree with them religiously. L'havdil, I wouldn't go to a Reform shul because I don't agree with them religiously, but that's hardly a statement that I hate them or think anyone who goes to a Reform shul is a bad person.

-lithos

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-08 12:32 pm UTC (link)
I agree with some points and disagree with others. Why should someone not be allowed to attend a conservative Bar Mitzvah? If you are concerned about the mechitza, pray earlier elsewhere.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(25 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…