onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2009-01-14 10:40:00
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Entry tags:crazy, rabbis

Ask Your LOR About This One

Here's a story posted on a board that I don't quite understand. Maybe you can explain it to me.

A man married a seemingly perfectly normal woman and they have a large for their surroundings family. Along the way they become frum. After the birth of their youngest the woman becomes severely mentally ill. She ceases going to the mikva and allowing her dh to even approach her. He continues to stay married to her because not only was it very questionable if she was fit to accept a get but he loves her and so do the children. In addition they want to not have any problems with shidduchim.

At some point the man goes to the LOR and says that he cannot be without a woman any longer without committing some kind of avera and this is not life. All attempts of family, rav and professionals to talk to the wife are futile. The rav doesn't say yes but he doesn't say no either to the man approaching other women as long as nidda is kept and it is very discreet to not hurt the man's family or the woman. He had several relationships which all ended for the same reason - the woman wanted a man she could marry. He confided to me that if he did not love his he would have killed her. But what bothered him the most is that if any woman he had been with had been found out she would have been a home breaker and a bitch while most would at least tacitly excuse him.

Yeah. So here are my questions.

1. Does halacha really require a man to stay with a psychotic woman? How crazy does she have to be for him not to be able to give a get? Isn't there something where you drop it off with the rav and she picks it up at her convenience? Aren't there medicines these days for crazy people and can't the husband get his wife committed, if she is so nuts? Could this rav have not found some other way out for this family?

2.  Okay, let's say he has no choice but to be married to her. Is adultry really better than masturbation, halachically speaking? Okay, maybe for a man there is no adultry because he can have more than one wife, but morally speaking, wouldn't cheating on your mentally ill spouse be much worse than jerking off?  Does God care about "morally speaking" or does He only care about the strict halacha?

3. They don't want to have problems with shidduchim? WTF? He has a crazy wife whom he can't divorce so he has affairs and he thinks this will be better than divorcing her with regards to his kids' shidduchim? WTF.

4. If he hadn't loved his wife, he would have killed her? Doesn't this just seem like the standard cheating guy routine, with a twist?  My wife's a crazy bitch that I want to kill, but we love her,  she won't give me any and now I have to get myself some on the side. Oh, yeah, my LOR said it's okay. Just so we don't mess up the kids' shidduchim.




(65 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]o_aronius
2009-01-14 03:59 pm UTC (link)
If a woman is seriously ill and do not understand the meaning of divorse, it's very divorce her.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]antidos
2009-01-14 06:15 pm UTC (link)
You wanted to say "very difficult" ?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]llennhoff
2009-01-14 04:34 pm UTC (link)
What scares me is that this guy is probably having unprotected sex with his mistresses. Hopefully they are on the pill, so the only risk is STDs.

And in general a wife has to be compos mentis to accept a get. IIRC the takanah of Rabenu Gershom doesn't allow it to take effect when he leaves it with a court - I know the takanah requires her to accept it (whereas before then the husband could unilaterally divorce the wife and she had no recourse). I think a heter meah rabbanim can get around this by allowing the husband to marry again, but technically he's still married to his first wife until she accepts the get he left with the court as part of the heter meah rabbanim.

Warning: This is all from memory, so much of it may be mistaken.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]antidos
2009-01-14 05:14 pm UTC (link)
Any responsible person would make sure that they are on the pills. I think he would make that sure.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-14 11:11 pm UTC (link)
What does compos menti mean? I am having difficulty imagining a mental illness in which a person does not qualify.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]llennhoff, 2009-01-15 12:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-15 12:57 am UTC

[info]zev_ari
2009-01-14 04:39 pm UTC (link)
1. At the very worst, he could leave a get for her with a bais din, get a heter meah rabbanim and remarry. I don't know what the logistics of following through with this are.

2. Re: adultery vs. masturbation -- I don't know. However, I think it's somewhat clear that she is abrogating some of her responsibilities as a wife (even if it's not entirely within her will) and so it's not unreasonable that he might abrogate some of his responsibilities as a husband (including fidelity). I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with that approach, but it is rational.

3. Yeah, he's not thinking this one through.

4. The guy's obviously in pain. I wouldn't put too much stock in statements such as these.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]antidos
2009-01-14 05:30 pm UTC (link)
I tend to agree, from the moral standpoint as well. If she refuses to fulfill her responsibilities as a wife without any valid reason for doing so, what is he supposed to do ?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-14 05:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-14 06:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-14 06:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-01-14 08:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-14 09:02 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-14 11:17 pm UTC

[info]sethg_prime
2009-01-14 05:07 pm UTC (link)
I refer you to Nathan Englander's excellent short story "For the Relief of Unbearable Urges", which appears in the anthology of the same name.

They don't want to have problems with shidduchim? WTF? He has a crazy wife whom he can't divorce so he has affairs and he thinks this will be better than divorcing her with regards to his kids' shidduchim?

I infer that she has some kind of insanity that lets her behave sufficiently well in public that her kids' suitors won't notice any problem. Not sure what item in the DSM would thread the needle in this way...is she extremely agoraphobic and everyone outside the family assumes she is just very zealous about tzniut? WTF indeed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-14 11:29 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, that's what I'm asking- what's the DSM diagnosis that works like that?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lostreality
2009-01-14 05:09 pm UTC (link)
1. We don't know that this woman is completely psychotic, maybe she just suffers from depression and skepticism (why she isn't going to the mikvah), and is being characterized as mentally ill. I think halachically they have to stay married if she can't accept a get, but I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing..if I had a nervous breakdown or something, I wouldn't want my husband to abandon and divorce me when I probably needed him the most. If it was something long term that required institutionalization, then maybe, but it seems she is well enough to still live with them.

2. don't know.

3. divorce is obvious to future shidduch's, affairs are not (necessarily).

4. that killing line sat weird with me, but maybe it's just an expression.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]antidos
2009-01-14 05:31 pm UTC (link)
We don't know that this woman is completely psychotic, maybe she just suffers from depression and skepticism (why she isn't going to the mikvah), and is being characterized as mentally ill.

This is not considered mental illness. She would be sane enough to understand what get is.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-14 05:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]zev_ari, 2009-01-14 06:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-14 11:42 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-15 02:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-15 02:46 am UTC

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-14 11:34 pm UTC (link)
I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing..if I had a nervous breakdown or something, I wouldn't want my husband to abandon and divorce me when I probably needed him the most

But wouldn't that be better than him having affairs behind your back?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-01-15 12:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-15 02:50 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sethg_prime, 2009-01-15 03:58 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-15 04:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sethg_prime, 2009-01-15 01:18 pm UTC

[info]antidos
2009-01-14 05:11 pm UTC (link)
1. Can't divorce her if she is mentally ill. However he can remarry quietly. Heter 100 rabbanim.
2. It is not adultry halachically speaking, because a man is allowed to have several wives. Clearly Jankev didn't commit adultery with Ruchel, when he was in Lea's tent and vise versa :)
3. His kids shidduchim chances are down anyway. And those aren't the affairs halachically speaking :)
4. Well, as comrade Stalin once said, 'Есть человек- есть проблема, нет человека, нету проблемы".




(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zev_ari
2009-01-14 05:15 pm UTC (link)
Thank heavens for Google translations! :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]mrn613
2009-01-14 06:10 pm UTC (link)
The reason the story doesn't make sense is that you are hearing it from the lying man's point of view.

If you heard the woman's point of view, it would be something like: She went to the gynecologist because she had a rash and found out she had caught herpes. Since she hadn't cheated, she confronted her husband, who told her that he had a mistress and they weren't using condoms b/c she was on the pill. The wife said, "I'm not going to go to the mikvah because if I sleep with you, I might get something even worse than herpes."

He tells everyone he knows that she is crazy and that's why he cheats.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]zev_ari
2009-01-14 06:37 pm UTC (link)
Is this conjecture, or do you know the principals involved?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-01-14 08:22 pm UTC (link)
really is that what happend?
Where does the part with the cow come in?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-14 11:44 pm UTC

[info]24816
2009-01-15 03:06 am UTC (link)
+1
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ruchel
2009-01-14 07:59 pm UTC (link)
I agree, I don't see how affairs are better. I also don't see single girls going to the mikve and knowing the laws to proper th, but that's French me...
also it IS adultery until he marries a second wife... it's just not mamzer/mandatory divorce worthy adultery. And it's also zera levatala unless he has unprotected sex...

I really think the "I can't go without sex" excuse is no good. He obviously can (won't kill him) but doesn't want (of course I understand why, but still it's too easy to say "can't" when G-d places him in the situation of no divorce + no sex). He also doesn't seem to want to search the opinion of (real) gedolim who would probably find a way of divorce...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]antidos
2009-01-14 09:13 pm UTC (link)
I really think the "I can't go without sex" excuse is no good... but still it's too easy to say "can't" when G-d places him in the situation of no divorce + no sex)

In Soviet Russia: a guy knocks on the door where Rabinovich lives, according to the name on the door. Some guy opens the door. Does Rabinovich live here ? - asks the visitor. - No - answers the guy. - But it is written here that Rabinovich lives here ! - Is *this* called life ????!

Ruchel, you are a woman, and you don't have such need for sex. And even if you want it so much, there are vibrators etc. However, for men, very few options are available except a wife who suddenly doesn't have a headache. So, it is not wise to judge a person until you are in his/her shoes.




(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]miris_rants, 2009-01-14 09:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-15 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-01-14 10:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-14 11:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-15 01:57 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-15 02:52 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sethg_prime, 2009-01-15 04:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ruchel, 2009-01-14 10:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-15 02:02 am UTC
some freaking improvement - [info]24816, 2009-01-15 03:10 am UTC
something doesn't add up
(Anonymous)
2009-01-14 09:26 pm UTC (link)
If the issue is that the woman is really nuts and is incapable of accepting a get, then he can legitimately obtain a hetter meah rabbonim, free himself and move on with his life.
If the issue is that he "loves her" (so much that he will not even consider killing her!) and doesn't want to divorce her despite the situation, then her mental state has nothing to do with him "being stuck" in this marriage and thus he is no different than any sexually frustrated/dissatisfied husband, with all the attendant halachic/moral issues.
- cfkaMP

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2009-01-14 10:17 pm UTC (link)
LOL, I was wondering how long it was going to take you to post this.

In fairness to the readers of this blog, here are some excerpts from the clarification post:

"The rav did not give an answer, a sort of ask me no questions type of understanding. I was not there when they spoke and heard it from the man.... One of his lady friends was a friend of mine - a widow."

So here's the deal: I don't think any rav approved this. I think that this was a guy who, like MANY others, found himself in a difficult marital situation and wanted some action on the side. MANY people in such a situation will come up with all kinds of smooth talking and justifications, and the people who they find to sleep with want to believe them.

JRKmommy

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-14 11:50 pm UTC (link)
I agree with you JRK, but I think that it is possible that the Rav will "look the other way" and the person will interpret this liberally as haskama to do as he pleases.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-15 02:06 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]sethg_prime, 2009-01-15 04:03 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-01-15 06:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2009-01-15 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-01-15 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2009-01-28 04:48 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2009-01-15 12:27 am UTC (link)
I wouldn't believe this story for a minute. I once worked somewhere where about 10 men got divorced over the course of about 15 years. Everyone single one of them had the same story - my ex became mentally ill. I've never heard a women blame her divorce on her husband sudenly becoming mentally ill.

BTW - why do people think its ok to leave a spouse who suffers from mental illness, but not one who, for example, gets cancer or becomes paralyzed. Do frum people not promise to love and cherish in sickness and in health or is that just a goyishe concept?

Also, if this guy is entitled to some type of heter, than what about the single person who "needs" physical intimacy just as much.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]24816
2009-01-15 03:12 am UTC (link)
"I wouldn't believe this story for a minute. I once worked somewhere where about 10 men got divorced over the course of about 15 years. Everyone single one of them had the same story - my ex became mentally ill. I've never heard a women blame her divorce on her husband sudenly becoming mentally ill."

+1

-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-01-15 06:30 pm UTC (link)
This story sounds insane. I bet the sleezy barsteward made it up so he would get sympathy from other women who he likes to smooth talk into bed.

R

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2009-01-15 10:28 pm UTC (link)
well the rabbi did not tell your husband to leave you so i guess it is OK for man to stay with a psychotic woman.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2009-01-15 11:54 pm UTC (link)
lol, I am asking if he has to, my husband wants to stay with his psychotic woman.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-01-17 11:54 pm UTC
Some other religion
(Anonymous)
2009-01-16 06:12 am UTC (link)
There is no heter at all in Orthodox Judaism for what that man did. I don't know any - even far-fetched and minority - opinions to do what he has claimed he got a heter for.

(Reply to this)


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