onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2009-02-19 20:48:00
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Entry tags:gentiles, halacha, idolatry

What Sense Does This Make To You?

According to the Shulchan Aruch, Jews are not allowed  within 6 feet of a church or other place of idol-worship. We are not allowed to bend down to remove a splinter if it would look like we're bowing in front of an idol. We are not allowed listen to church music or smell incense. We are forbidden by the Shulchan aruch from even mentioning the name of a church in passing, as when giving directions to someone or arranging a meeting. That chapter has some more interesting stuff, but I'll stop here.

Maybe this made sense hundreds of years ago when Jews were persecuted by the Christians and subjected to horrible pogroms and massacres on a regular basis. Maybe this made sense when the majority of the people were illiterates and perhaps could be easily swayed to convert to a more popular religion. Maybe this made sense when people still imagined that the impurity of idolatry could be catchy, like a disease.

But now? What is the point? What are we afraid of?  I'll be a little more specific.

Why was Rabbi Lookstein's attendance at an interfaith prayer service on the morning of the Inauguration such a big freakin deal? Who cares?

Why does this woman have to end her friendship over a wedding in a church? Really, why?

Why do people have to ask their rabbis about whether they can attend a memorial service for a gentile relative or friend?

Why do many frum Jews feel the need to spit when they walk or drive past a church?

Do you really think that by stepping into a church sanctuary, the wrath of the One True God will descend upon you, because He is a Jealous and Vengeful Lord?  Do you think that monotheism will crumble if you attend your friends' church weddings? Or is it temptation? Do you  think that you won't be be able to resist  and have to request an emergency baptism? Is it like an addiction, if we just step into a church, we won't be able to help ourselves and just be sucked in? If we don't follow these rules, are we just going to be easy prey for the next two Witnesses who show up at our door?

How do you understand the continued enforcement of this totally outdated  set of halachos?  




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[info]antidos
2009-02-20 04:02 am UTC (link)
Well, if one converts one doesn't need to keep shabbes, kosher, niddah etc. Much more convenient, and Rabbi Jesus MH"M SHLIT"A sounds slightly more palatible than Jealous and Vegneful Lord.

(Reply to this)

Happy Hanukkah!
[info]24816
2009-02-20 04:14 am UTC (link)
In Hanukkah time Jews also thought that they can sit between chairs. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. Judaism is too serious matter to put in same line with its by-products.

http://www.geocities.com/tamaralevin2000/Diversity.html
http://aish.com/graphics/articles/DemographicChart.pdf

Besides, it's enough pressure to adjust people of similar background, but mixing different background is much more risky - up to: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126886

-FI

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(Reply from suspended user)
Re: Happy Hanukkah!
[info]livelife73
2009-02-20 05:03 pm UTC (link)
I agree with everythign you said except it is a myth that everyone who is an auser is 'sick', if that were true then do you know how much of the male population would have mental health issues (not a sexist comment, it is a fact that the majority of abusers are men, I can quote stats if anyone feels offened)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(Reply from suspended user)
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]livelife73, 2009-02-20 05:19 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)
Re: Happy Hanukkah!
[info]24816
2009-02-20 01:46 pm UTC (link)
Sure, this is only part of the issue.

It makes it harder to recognize problem signs in different culture beforehand. My friend got trapped with an American idiot. She would easily spot and stay away from him if he was Russian.

Similarly, during Russian revolution Jews rejected Yidishkeit, because they were too familiar with the internal struggles, but they embraced Russian culture, which they knew only from classic Russian literature.

Besides, we learn coping mechanisms in our own culture, but in different culture things might be done differently, that further escalates the problem.

Thus you are right, it might be too risky to mix different backgrounds, but if we have to choose, then people who grew up in the similar Jewish traditions, may have right coping mechanisms and a better chance to work things out.

-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Happy Hanukkah!
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-02-20 03:32 pm UTC (link)
No one is even trying to equate Judaism with any religion in any of the scenarios I posted. I don't understand your "by-products" line- people are just trying to pay respects to a dead loved one or attend a friend's wedding.

What if you were getting married and a friend said, I'm sorry I can't go because it will be a Jewish ceremony and my religious faith teaches that Jews are evil. How would that work out for your friendship?

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Re: Happy Hanukkah!
[info]24816
2009-02-20 05:26 pm UTC (link)
In a sense attending religious ceremony is like accepting their procedures, etc. It may be not as simple as you try to portrait it. My Rabbi allowed me to eat at conservative synagogue, but not to participate in their services.
I didn't have to say that they are evil either, don't stretch it!
-FI

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-20 05:34 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]24816, 2009-02-22 04:03 am UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2009-02-26 10:06 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]24816, 2009-02-26 10:17 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-26 11:33 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]24816, 2009-02-26 11:37 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-26 11:41 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]24816, 2009-02-26 11:47 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]sethg_prime, 2009-02-23 08:55 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-24 04:54 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah!
[info]mahpitom
2009-02-21 10:07 pm UTC (link)
<
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<what [...] evil.>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<<What if you were getting married and a friend said, I'm sorry I can't go because it will be a Jewish ceremony and my religious faith teaches that Jews are evil. How would that work out for your friendship?>>

Maybe that's part of the point, not to encourage friendships between Jews and non-Jews...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-22 01:45 am UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]mahpitom, 2009-02-22 09:49 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-22 09:59 pm UTC
Re: Happy Hanukkah! - [info]llennhoff, 2009-02-23 02:24 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

(Reply from suspended user)

(Anonymous)
2009-02-20 04:53 am UTC (link)
Just wondering, what about Unitarian churches? Seems like they don't do idol worship there, so would they be okay? (I mean if they had separate seating.)

Ichabod Chrain

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[info]livelife73
2009-02-20 05:06 pm UTC (link)
I am an Orthodox Jew for 11+ years now and was raised in a Unitarian Universalist Church and my mother continues to attend. There are a lot of pagans that attend the Unitarian church. And yes some worship idols. And they talk a lot about other religions and a lot of the songs they sing do have there roots in Chritianity.

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[info]livelife73
2009-02-20 05:10 pm UTC (link)
(sorry I cut it off too soon)
that being said, I have asked my Rav about non Jewish weddings and sanctuarys etc., and I always end up having to vote in a church too.
My Rav told me I could go into the curch, just not into the sanctuary.(except for voting he said yes I could go in if the voting were in there)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ruchel
2009-02-20 10:13 am UTC (link)
Jewish schools take the kids to visit "cultural" churches, either ones that aren't used anymore, or even some still used but not during offices. I also realized over years that a good number of educated, European frum yidden (I'm not talking the European MO kind but women in sheitel, etc) have visited the Vatican.

I think I remember learning church music is ok if you don't understand Latin.

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(Reply from suspended user)

[info]ruchel
2009-02-20 01:48 pm UTC (link)
It says somewhere that you should be familiar with idolatry in order to recognize it... I can't remember where...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ymarkov
2009-02-20 01:20 pm UTC (link)
Aren't you assuming your conclusion? What if these laws (which remain law until amended by a properly constituted court) are not there because we're afraid of anything, but for an another reason entirely? IOW, what if they're not outdated?

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[info]onionsoupmix
2009-02-20 03:23 pm UTC (link)
Go ahead, that's why I'm asking. What reason do you see for these laws?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]ymarkov
2009-02-20 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Avoda zara and its accoutrements are assur be-hana'a, d'oraita. This has nothing to do with fear (unlike the gezera against wine, which was motivated by fear of intermarriage). Details are in ShA YD 134-158.

Issurei hana'a are always pretty broad. Just like you can't take a shortcut through a synagogue (lack of respect, IOW - inappropriate hana'a from consecrated space), you can't take shelter from the rain in an active church, for example. Similarly, giving directions in reference to a church ("take a right after the tall church") is both acknowledging it with too much respect and inappropriately benefitting from it. Spitting, AFAIK, is not required.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-20 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-02-20 05:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-20 05:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-02-23 05:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-23 06:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sethg_prime, 2009-02-23 08:50 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-02-23 10:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-24 04:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-02-23 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-02-23 11:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]llennhoff, 2009-02-23 06:43 pm UTC

[info]lucretia_borgia
2009-02-20 01:50 pm UTC (link)
Can you give a Shulchan Aruch citation? ... I ask because I suspect he's formulating laws for Christian churches based on the standard (Massechet Avodah Zara and other places) laws on idol worshippers. But there are assorted opinions that assign Christians a role that doesn't equate them with idol worshippers stam.

And I assume that's your source of discomfort. I note you're not asking about Jews attending the temple services of their Buddhist or Hindu friends and family. Yet most e.g. (modern) Hindus would claim that their statue is a reminder of the deity in question, which is itself merely an aspect of one divine root. Which, taken strictly, would put them as no more polytheist than Christians who worship the Trinity, whom most Jewish authorities (perhaps out of ignorance, perhaps out of timidity) accept as (imperfect) monotheists.

But if you accept that Jews are not permitted to attend a wedding at which foods and flowers will be offered before a statue of Ganesha, you also, I think, have to agree that Jews should not attend a wedding where a cross or other statuary will be venerated, and where food will be (perhaps) transformed into the substance of a deity which is the son of (but one in being with) the one we traditionally consider ours.

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[info]llennhoff
2009-02-20 03:19 pm UTC (link)
From the Beyond Bt comments on the post:

{3} Shulchan Aruch, Chelek Yoreh Deah, Siman 142, Sif 10:
It is forbidden to stand in the shade of a house of idol worship.
NOTE 1: Since even standing in the shade of a house of idol worship is forbidden, how could entering inside permitted?
NOTE 2: Also see Shulchan Aruch, Chelek Yoreh Deah, Siman 149, Sif

} Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, Chapter 167, Paragraph 7:
It is forbidden to look at an idol or its decorations, as it says (in the Bible):
DO NOT TURN TO IDOLS. And it is necessary to stay at least six feet away from a church [literally, house], and how much more so from the idol itself, and NOT go there.
NOTE: In the previous paragraph the Kitzur Shulchan hints that Christianity is idolatry.

Larry's side note: When I first started going to my local right wing shul I tried to find anyone who would admit to crossing the street in summer to not derive benefit from the shadow of the local church. I couldn't find anybody.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]lucretia_borgia, 2009-02-20 06:36 pm UTC

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-02-20 03:20 pm UTC (link)
I got this from the kitzur, chp. 167. But I think my questions would be the same if your friend was getting married in a Hindu ceremony. I just don't see what the big deal is in observing someone participating in their religious rite.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-02-20 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Aliza's article was sad.

It's clear she was really trying not to offend, but I'm wondering if this is one of those situations where having a mentor who is really, really skilled in newly Jewish/newly religious relationship issues would be a good thing.

Having the benefit of hindsight, I'd say that a hypothetical wedding shouldn't have even been discussed. Make a joke about finding a groom first instead.

Chances are, if there was a REAL Catholic wedding, it would be scheduled for a Saturday. Presto - problem solved. You can't go to the ceremony on Shabbat, but you'd be happy to go to the reception after sundown, where you can drink Coke all night or maybe (if she's a really, really good friend) eat a special-ordered kosher meals on paper and plastic.

Otherwise, I'm not the best person to answer the question because I have attended Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Sikh and Buddhist weddings.

That said, if someone was confronted and there was simply no way around discussing the issue - maybe one way to put it is that you DO recognize the important religious nature of what is happening during the wedding or other life-cycle ceremony. You have enough respect for that reality that you aren't pretending that it doesn't exist, and that the church is not different than any other venue. I would NOT use the word "idolatry" when explaining someone like this to a Catholic friend. Perhaps, though, it would be possible to say that the wedding is a sacrament and a religious ceremony, and that the whole way that the church is designed isn't to simply have statues as works of art, but to have things like infused with religious meaning. Likewise, the intended effect is that anyone in the church doesn't feel like a passive observer, but is moved by the ceremony and surroundings.

A friend can be reassured that you would still expect THEM to have a religious wedding - this is just one of those things that comes along with taking on a new religion and leaving the old one. You no longer share a common form of worship, but the rest of the friendship endures.

Incidentally, although it's a bit different than the Catholic situation, we did encounter an awkward moment on the Sikh wedding. The Sikh gurdwara may have been a somewhat radical one. As obvious outsiders, we were welcomed and naturally followed the dress code - that wasn't the issue. Our group of friends included Hindus, who naturally noticed the prominent "Free Khalistan" banner behind the couple during the ceremony, the references to rejecting the Vedas to follow the Guru in the liturgy of the ceremony, and last but certainly not least, the homage paid to the assassins of Indira Ghandi and other "martyrs" of the cause. The friend in question was not radical in the least - he's Canadian enough that he and my husband played pick-up hockey all the time, and enough of a humanitarian that he did volunteer work in a Zimbabwe hospital through a Jewish organization (Ve'ahavta). I don't think I'd go back to that gurdwara though....

JRKmommy

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-11 01:46 am UTC (link)
I notice alot of things the shulchan aruch says we don't go by. What do you do when you are driving on a road and a church is on your right. Do you make a dangerous left and collide into someone's house?
R

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