onionsoupmix: Yom Tov

onionsoupmix (

onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2009-10-12 02:40:00

Entry tags:

rabbis, shul, women

Yom Tov

Simchas Torah was okay. Here are the recaps.

The good part: When two ladies and I sneaked a bottle of Skyy from the community meal and did our own version of hakafos in the main shul, dancing around the bima and singing old camp songs. It was a little glimpse of what things could have been like, had I been born with the right body parts.

The bad part: When the crazy uptight rabbi came to yell at us for being in the (empty) men's section and interferring with his shul experience.

The depressing part: Trying to dance with the ladies in the ladies' section and watching women tell off their teenage daughters for singing niggunim out loud. Because chas ve shalom, the men should hear them and violate kol isha.

Then we all had to sing in a whisper. Not kidding.

(80 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	uptight rabbi came to yell at us o_aronius 2009-10-12 07:21 am UTC (link)
	http://macm.livejournal.com/998840.html (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: uptight rabbi came to yell at us onionsoupmix 2009-10-12 08:16 am UTC (link)
	lovely. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Re: uptight rabbi came to yell at us onionsoupmix 2009-10-12 08:16 am UTC (link)
	also good for my CHUMRA post. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: uptight rabbi came to yell at us -

chanief, 2009-10-13 12:56 am UTC

	(Anonymous) 2009-10-12 09:49 am UTC (link)
	ha ha ha. Sorry for laughing, but your experience is alot better than mine. At least you got to dance for a bit before the rabbi saw you take over his quiet room. I avoid shul on simchat torah coz truthfully it's rather depressing watching other people have fun while you have to sit on the side and pretend to enjoy it. R (Reply to this)

	ruchel 2009-10-12 11:57 am UTC (link)
	At least the women danced. In every shul I went they just kinda watch, at best clap their hands, and gorge on the food. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2009-10-12 01:26 pm UTC (link)
	yes, it is pathetic. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	schwevy 2009-10-12 02:55 pm UTC (link)
	used to be my favourite holiday. then i joined an orthodox shul. now i cant be bothered. i stay home until lunch time, although this year i actually had to take my son to an emergency dentist appt. you can see the details on my facebook! made it back in time for lunch! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2009-10-12 03:43 pm UTC (link)
	It's amazing how women are compromised during this holiday and how few authorities address it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

livelife73
2009-10-12 04:07 pm UTC (link)

it became my favourite holiday last year when the Rabbi of my Orthodox shul gave a Torah for the women to go into the other sanctuary and dance and sing with it.This year my husband approached him on the Bimah and asked again, his words were "Definitely not".
I felt like crying. Despite the women dancing and singing and drinking around me, I still felt like a spectator, and ended up getting quite bored.
My husband suggested that the women in the community, who are interested, raise money to buy our own Torah.
We don't have to store it at the shul, and can then do with it what we want, when we want, and how we want.
My favourite holiday was ruined yesterday.

It was the first time I really felt angry about being Othodox and being a woman.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2009-10-12 04:11 pm UTC (link)
	why did your rabbi change his stance? We were not brave enought to take out the torah. Then we would have probably gotten ourselves kicked out. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-10-12 05:17 pm UTC

	schwevy 2009-10-13 01:20 am UTC (link)
	we dont need a torah, but i think organized activity would be a good thing. food, drink shiurim, dancing, singing. maybe in the waxman. sisterhood sponsored, or tickets sold. i am planning to get that going for next year. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2009-10-13 12:05 pm UTC

(no subject) -

schwevy, 2009-10-13 01:09 pm UTC

(no subject) -

livelife73, 2009-10-13 12:08 pm UTC

(no subject) -

schwevy, 2009-10-13 01:11 pm UTC

	mindycl 2009-10-12 06:18 pm UTC (link)
	I dont know, my joy is watching my 2 boys dancing with my husband. I have no desire to dance. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Very sad chanief 2009-10-13 12:54 am UTC (link)
	I think you might be fooling yourself into believing you derive as much joy from watching as you would actively participating, or it's possible that your lack of desire to dance on simchas torah says something for itself. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Very sad -

mindycl, 2009-10-13 01:17 am UTC

Re: Very sad -

joshuazelinsky, 2009-10-13 01:26 am UTC

	skbw 2009-10-12 08:19 pm UTC (link)
	Wow. Time for a new shul? Sorry to hear about all this. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	antidos 2009-10-12 08:40 pm UTC (link)
	Yew. Time to dump Judaism ? :) Then, no dancing with Sefer Torah :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-13 01:08 am UTC

(no subject) -

antidos, 2009-10-13 04:06 am UTC

(no subject) -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-13 01:10 am UTC

(no subject) -

llennhoff, 2009-10-13 08:24 pm UTC

(no subject) -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-14 12:01 pm UTC

	antidos 2009-10-12 08:52 pm UTC (link)
	When I was passing a certain Beis Yaakov school near Machane Yehuda market in Jerusalem, girls singing was heard on the street and it was quite loud. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2009-10-13 01:03 am UTC (link)
	Were these actually girls from Beis Znus on Pritzus Street? (Reply to this) (Parent)

	joshuazelinsky 2009-10-12 09:50 pm UTC (link)
	You may want to consider going to a Modern Orthodox shul. The bad and depressing parts would not have occurred. (Reply to this) (Thread)

Not true
(Anonymous)
2009-10-13 12:50 am UTC (link)

I've spent many a Simchas Torah in a modern orthodox shul. The only way that women were less marginalized was by the absence of a mechitzah during the kiddush. They were/are still expected to get their joy by watching the men dance. I call bullshit on the whole thing which is why, when my children requested that we go to our local modern orthodox shul for simchas torah, I let my husband take them while I stayed home. I thoroughly enjoyed myself in my nice quiet house where no one decides what I am allowed or not allowed to do.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Not true -

chanief, 2009-10-13 12:50 am UTC

Re: Not true -

joshuazelinsky, 2009-10-13 12:57 am UTC

Re: Not true -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-13 12:52 am UTC

	(Anonymous) 2009-10-13 03:25 am UTC (link)
	ok ladies time to stop complaining and start doing, if anyone lives in monsey and would like to organize something for next year email me saramaimon at yahoo (Reply to this) (Thread)

	hannahsarah 2009-10-13 07:20 am UTC (link)
	Saramaimon, are you by any chance related to Rabbi Solomon Maimon of Seattle? (I mean, of course you are, but are you related directly?) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Rabbi SM - (Anonymous), 2009-10-15 11:27 pm UTC

Re: Rabbi SM -

hannahsarah, 2009-10-16 01:33 am UTC

Re: Rabbi SM -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-16 02:22 am UTC

Re: Rabbi SM -

hannahsarah, 2009-10-16 05:32 am UTC

hannahsarah
2009-10-13 07:22 am UTC (link)

What I hate is when the men barge into our side of the mechitza so that they can raid our food table, after they've eaten everything on their side. We hardly get anything at all on our table to start with, and then the men and boys are devouring things like locusts.

The women will be trying to dance, but they sort of stop and disperse when the men start coming in. Someone asked one of the men if they would leave, and he said "Why? Nobody's dancing right now!" Aaaaaaagh, CAUSE AND EFFECT, PEOPLE!

(Reply to this)

(Anonymous)
2009-10-13 08:39 am UTC (link)

No matter how much my feet may hurt, I make a point each Simchat Torah of doing at least some dancing, davka, because 20 years ago my first experience of Simchat Torah in a very large Orthodox shul left such a bad taste that I nearly refused to do anything Orthodox again.

As a 17 yr old, I hated sitting in the women's balcony, just watching men dancing. So, even though I'm less active now, I do my dancing and make sure that my girls get a chance to dance with me too.

Ironically, the big Orthodox shul where I felt so turned off was Modern Orthodox, while I currently have no problems dancing at my Chabad shul.

JRKmommy

(Reply to this)

	Different planet? ב‘ ’ה 24816 2009-10-13 02:58 pm UTC (link)
	In our Chabad the Rebbetzin dances and sings out loud. We also dance and try to sing if we know the songs. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Different planet? ב‘ ’ה onionsoupmix 2009-10-13 03:15 pm UTC (link)
	In my shul, your chabad rebbitzin would be ostracized. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Different planet? ב‘ ’ה -

24816, 2009-10-13 03:17 pm UTC

Re: Different planet? ב‘ ’ה -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-13 03:23 pm UTC

Re: Different planet? ב‘ ’ה -

24816, 2009-10-13 03:42 pm UTC

Re: Different planet? ב‘ ’ה -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-13 03:57 pm UTC

Re: Different planet? ב‘ ’ה -

24816, 2009-10-13 03:59 pm UTC

Re: Different planet? ב‘ ’ה -

24816, 2009-10-13 08:01 pm UTC

arielsokolovsky
2009-10-13 05:56 pm UTC (link)

B"H
The depressing part: Trying to dance with the ladies in the ladies' section and watching women tell off their teenage daughters for singing niggunim out loud. Because chas ve shalom, the men should hear them and violate kol isha.

Then we all had to sing in a whisper. Not kidding.

May be you should daven for redemption?:-)
http://GeulaNovelties.com
15 .# Kol beisha - to hear the voice of a woman (singing) is
forbidden during exile
In the Redemption we will hear the voice of the woman !!!
http://www.geulanovelties.com/point15.html

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2009-10-13 05:59 pm UTC (link)
	I'm gonna have to pray for the redemption very quietly, so God may not hear me. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

aunt_becca, 2009-10-20 04:15 pm UTC

Woman or Women? ב‘ ’ה -

24816, 2009-10-13 06:00 pm UTC

Re: Woman or Women? ב‘ ’ה -

24816, 2009-10-13 06:30 pm UTC

	Sorry shevh 2009-10-13 07:45 pm UTC (link)
	My Simchat Torah was quite enjoyable... I held the Torah in the middle of the circle, got an aliyah, and had Glilah! No, I was not in an Orthodox shul, but I have been in ones where they allow the above to happen as well. Happy Birthday! (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Sorry onionsoupmix 2009-10-14 12:04 pm UTC (link)
	You were in an Orthodox shul where women got glilah? Tell me more. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: Sorry -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-14 12:11 pm UTC

Re: Sorry -

shevh, 2009-10-14 08:50 pm UTC

Re: Sorry -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-16 02:23 am UTC

	Simchas Torah (Anonymous) 2009-10-14 04:04 pm UTC (link)
	I'm a guy and I avoid going to shul on Simchas Torah. I don't understand what all the fuss is about. And in some places they take the festivities outside, which to my mind shows a lack of drech eretz for the community. If that makes me a drug addicted atheist who is a slave to his passions, then so be it. (Reply to this)

Things always look better from the other side of the Mechitza...
(Anonymous)
2009-10-14 08:06 pm UTC (link)

As a formerly frum guy, I want to weigh in and say that although I'm sympathetic with those girls and women who'd like to dance in shul, it's good to keep in mind that boys and men are often in the position where they feel forced into the awkward exercise of (seemingly endlessly) shuffling around in a circle holding other men's sweaty hands, and trying to feign celebratory emotions.

I've often envied the girls and women because they did not have these pressures. Overall, of course, in any society with rigid roles, there will be up sides and down sides to each of the roles. This doesn't mean that all roles are, on balance, equally good--but that there are often overlooked benefits and drawbacks to each role.

Great energetic and spunky blog, by the way...

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Things always look better from the other side of the Mechitza... onionsoupmix 2009-10-16 09:42 am UTC (link)
	I know. The grass is greener and all that. If I was a guy, this blog would be complaining just as you wrote. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	Shalmo (Anonymous) 2009-10-16 08:54 am UTC (link)
	Ah onion you evil kofer, this is just more icing on the cake of reasons why you need to transfer to a reform synagogue (after convincing your husand of course). Then you no longer will have to put up with those bad and depressing parts. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Shalmo onionsoupmix 2009-10-16 09:41 am UTC (link)
	are women in orthodox islam allowed to dance and sing when men are present? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Shalmo - (Anonymous), 2009-10-16 11:19 am UTC

Re: Shalmo -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-16 04:05 pm UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

Re: Shalmo -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-18 12:25 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

Re: Shalmo -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-18 01:16 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

Re: Shalmo -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-18 01:33 am UTC

(Reply from suspended user)

Re: Shalmo -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-18 03:09 am UTC

Shalmo - (Anonymous), 2009-10-17 06:36 am UTC

Re: Shalmo -

onionsoupmix, 2009-10-18 12:00 am UTC

Shalmo - (Anonymous), 2009-10-18 07:08 am UTC

Shalmo
(Anonymous)
2009-10-16 11:29 am UTC (link)

Ok I just had to laugh when JP said this:

"Oh, talk about hypocrites! The only reason you don't work in a brothel is because they keep throwing your resume in garbage."

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=20994843&postID=1476511644138100443&isPopup=true

HE may be crazy but he comes up with good comebacks!

Both JP and Garnel have been so horribly refuted by me in my refutations to Torah MiSinai, hence once has blocked me and the other just keeps deleting all my comments.

(Reply to this)

(80 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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