onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2009-11-03 13:23:00
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Entry tags:crazy, gentiles, morality

Did the Jews Kill Jesus?

Did the Jews kill Jesus? The Gospels say yes. We say no.

Uh... who cares? 

According to the Rambam, it would have been a mitzvah if we had. 

It is a mitzvah, however, to eradicate Jewish traitors, minnim, and apikorsim, and to cause them to descend to the pit of destruction, since they cause difficulty to the Jews and sway the people away from God, {as did Jesus of Nazareth and his students, and Tzadok, Baithos, and their students. May the name of the wicked rot.} From Here. 

That whole section is great, btw. We're not allowed to save idolaters from drowning, regardless of whether it is shabbos or not. We can't offer them medicine or even rent them homes. You can't even speak about them in a kind manner or give them gifts. 

Well, okay, see, since we live in America, and are subject to secular rule and would probably get in trouble, we don't actually have to follow all this right now.

But that's part of the evil of living in Galus- we're forced to be moral and ethical, to some extent.  Hopefully Moshiach will come soon and I can start killing pagans and heretics right and left. 
 
Seriously, frum people.

How can you ever accept anything the rambam says as valid after that page of gibberish?

How can you ever accept the Torah as the true compass of morality after reading that page? 

What, exactly, is the big deal about being an idol worshipper, that you deserve death for it? How does idolatry render your life worthless more so than, say, atheism?

Why should we not kill a convicted child rapist, for example, but oh boy, once he starts praying to Zeus, off with his head. What sense does that make?




(67 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]ruchel
2009-11-03 07:15 pm UTC (link)
We don't pasken by a random source. That's why we have gedolim. We don't kill anyone, we bring them to beis din or civil justice depending on circumstances.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2009-11-03 07:21 pm UTC (link)
Rambam is not a random source. The shulchan aruch repeats much of this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]ruchel
2009-11-03 07:24 pm UTC (link)
We also can't open the shulchan aruch and pasken. Or if we can, we are a gadol hador lol

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-03 07:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-11-03 09:28 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 01:03 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]hamaskil, 2009-11-04 01:06 am UTC

[info]tatianalarina
2009-11-03 07:16 pm UTC (link)
That's one of the necessary beliefs rather than true beliefs. What the Rambam actually believed is very different from all he wrote, and it's not like he hid it either. He was mostly an aristotelian -- you know, G-d is "thinking thinking thinking," incorporeal, and that's about it for true beliefs.

As for necessary beliefs, well, that's just what they are -- necessary for social cohesion, for the preservation of community, for holding on to identity in exile. The reason the other nations aren't here anymore and Jews are is because of food, names, holidays, etc but also because of beliefs like this that cement group identity.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2009-11-03 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Is it worth it? Is not assimilating worth killing people who hold beliefs contrary to ours?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ruchel, 2009-11-03 07:21 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]tatianalarina, 2009-11-03 07:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-03 07:32 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]sethg_prime, 2009-11-03 07:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-03 11:52 pm UTC
They never actually did it - [info]o_aronius, 2009-11-04 12:35 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2009-11-04 02:59 am UTC (link)
The reason the jews are around and other nations aren't is because the bible was highly accepted by the majority of people in the world and other writings weren't. Because the bible was so accepted everyone kept the jews as a separate entity and hated and loved them accordingly.

Nations like the Philistines or Moabs, didn't have a written code that kept them apart, that made other nations jealous and hate them and not allow them to intermarry. These nations just intermarried and died off while jews weren't allowed to do that.

If the christians and muslims have not accepted the bible, the jews would not have been so noticeable and they would have probably intermarried and lost their identity a long time ago.

Daniel

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ymarkov
2009-11-03 09:44 pm UTC (link)
How can you ever accept anything the rambam says as valid after that page of gibberish?
Let's not be offensive. It is the Law, as formulated by our Supreme Court, as applied to its time and place - specifically, one in which Jews had self-rule in their communities.

If you don't understand what's so horrible about idol worship, consider that it strikes against both the Jewish and Noahide Covenants. It may be difficult for a modern mind to grok the concept of jealous God, but there it is.

BTW, this has nothing to do with true vs. necessary beliefs, as I see it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2009-11-03 11:46 pm UTC (link)
Let's not be offensive. It is the Law, as formulated by our Supreme Court, as applied to its time and place - specifically, one in which Jews had self-rule in their communities.

In 1856, the Supreme Court of the United States of America decided the Dred Scott case, in which they held that a black man was property and not eligible for basic human rights. I think it is perfectly fine to call that decision gibberish.

In law school classes, if this case is taught, it is taught to show the fallibility of the justice system and the sad state of society back then.

Let's compare this to this Rambam. Many people learn daily rambam including these "halachos"- do you think they learn this particular set with a perspective on how far society has come since then? No. They do not. They learn them respectfully, deferrentially. I am sure that many people think that if moshiach would come and we would have self rule again, then these rules would automatically apply.

Why does the concept of self-rule somehow make this any better? How does that make these decisions any more moral?

I don't understand what is horrible about idol worship, any more than atheism. Why are we not supposed to let all the atheists drown?

The jealous God- do you have a good explanation for that? I'd love to hear one.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bringing_peace, 2009-11-04 02:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 03:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bringing_peace, 2009-11-04 03:21 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 03:40 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bringing_peace, 2009-11-04 03:49 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 05:09 am UTC
When was it that Jews enforced Jewish laws on the gentiles? - [info]bringing_peace, 2009-11-05 01:30 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bringing_peace, 2009-11-05 01:33 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-11-04 02:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 04:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-11-04 05:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 08:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-11-04 09:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bringing_peace, 2009-11-05 01:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 04:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bringing_peace, 2009-11-05 01:36 am UTC

[info]onionsoupmix
2009-11-04 01:19 am UTC (link)
Are you saying morality is relative to time and place?

In that case, fine, you and I agree. However, the vast majority of the frum world would disagree b/c the Torah is true for all times, etc.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ymarkov, 2009-11-04 02:41 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 04:36 pm UTC
And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה
[info]24816
2009-11-03 11:18 pm UTC (link)
You see, there are laws that are not applicable due to various reasons.

Similarly, when kids used to get on my nerves, I would punish them harshly, and then make sure that someone else (like their or my father) cancel the punishment. That got the message across, even at the cost of my reputation.

And don’t confuse Christians with idol worshipers http://www.abaratz.com/1vaetze.htm#q5763

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-11-03 11:48 pm UTC (link)
I am not confusing christians and idol worshippers.

The Rambam clearly says that apikorsim like Jesus should be killed and you get a mitzvah for that. What's there to confuse?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]24816, 2009-11-03 11:52 pm UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 12:12 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]24816, 2009-11-04 12:21 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 01:01 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]24816, 2009-11-04 01:05 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 01:17 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]24816, 2009-11-04 01:19 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]onionsoupmix, 2009-11-04 01:38 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]24816, 2009-11-04 01:43 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]hamaskil, 2009-11-04 01:10 am UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]ymarkov, 2009-11-04 02:29 pm UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה - [info]24816, 2009-11-04 03:51 pm UTC
Re: And why are we not killing the wicked son? ב‘ ’ה
[info]hamaskil
2009-11-04 01:09 am UTC (link)
why are we not killing the wicked son?

When was the last time you have studied in Beis Midrash ? Wicked son is a purely theoretical case, it can't happen in practice.

I would punish them harshly, and then make sure that someone else (like their or my father) cancel the punishment.

This way kids learn that a punishment isn't really a punishment. What dr. Spock have you been reading ?

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-11-04 04:09 am UTC (link)
I never quite understood the problem with idol worshipers. I think they have been misconstrued. I don't think people ever really worshiped an object. The object just was a symbol for the diety or dieties, just like we don't worship the parchment a torah is written on, but we treat the object with respect. Besides, g-d didn't reveal himself to those people or teach them torah. They, like the rest of us, were placed in a harsh and confusing world with a need to try to make sense of it. Besides, why do beliefs matter so much more than actions and how we treat other people?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lucretia_borgia
2009-11-04 01:20 pm UTC (link)
Well, there are actually a few answers to this. Not in order. (1) According to our tradition G-d did reveal himself to all of mankind, both through Adam and through Noah, at the very least. Idolatry is a law applying to all of mankind and about which all people are permanently considered "warned" (in the legal sense: just as a b"d can't execute someone for a crime where he was not reminded of the act's criminality by valid warners, plus some additional details not relevant here). (2) According to our tradition G-d did offer Torah to the other nations, but they declined. To be fair, our tradition also is that we accepted it only under coercion (at Sinai; and accepted it willingly after the 1st Purim), which creates a fairness question: why didn't He force the nations to accept it?

In both cases, yes, you can of course deny that these things ever in fact happened, but it is in the light of that tradition that the rest of Jewish law needs to be judged. Otherwise you're ripping the law out of its context. Then again, this entire discussion (and blog!) rips the law out of its context by admitting of a concept of "morality" outside of Torah. A better question is, whose declaration of Torah law is/should be listened to, particularly when what they say opposes modern understandings of "the moral"?

(3) You're right, people don't worship an object, but one form of idolatry does involve inviting the god to take up residence in the object, at which point they do their act of worship. Seeing the image becomes seeing the god. For an interesting read on Hindu idol worship by a sociologist who feels that idolaters have been treated unfairly (including by the use of the pejorative term "idol"), see Darsan: Seeing the Divine Image in India by Dianna Eck.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]ymarkov
2009-11-04 02:44 pm UTC (link)
I suggest a short paper "The Biblical Idea of Idolatry"

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Maimonides says Rabbinic court DID kill Jesus
[info]march_30
2009-11-04 05:10 pm UTC (link)
Judges, Kings and Wars, Chapter 11 uncensored version -also reiterated in Epistle to Yemen.

Source is uncensored version of TB Sanhedrin and Pesah'im

Maimonides makes no mention at all of Romans -they are innocent!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Maimonides says Rabbinic court DID kill Jesus
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-11-04 05:36 pm UTC (link)
Yes, the rambam does apparently say this:
אף ישוע הנצרי שדימה שיהיה משיח ונהרג בבית דין

But how do you know the Rambam is speaking from a historical p.o.v and not just parroting Christian accusations? When did the whole thing about the Romans come out? Would he have known about that theory?

Anyway it is interesting. Thanks for noting it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Maimonides says Rabbinic court DID kill Jesus - [info]march_30, 2009-11-04 05:42 pm UTC
Re: Maimonides says Rabbinic court DID kill Jesus - [info]march_30, 2009-11-04 05:45 pm UTC
Re: Maimonides says Rabbinic court DID kill Jesus
(Anonymous)
2009-11-04 11:26 pm UTC (link)
I don't recall Maimonides being there at the time.
Bare in mind the Romans killed alot of people on the cross, jesus was not the only one.

R

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-11-04 11:57 pm UTC (link)
How did Maimonides know that Jesus was a heretic? Did he study the gospels and believe that they accurately conveyed his teachings? Since jesus was a jew, aren't we supposed to give him some benefit of the doubt? He might have just been a rabbi whose followers got a little carried away after his untimely death.

(Reply to this)

contrarian
[info]glowing_flower
2009-11-05 02:12 am UTC (link)
I think given the number of Jews killed in Jesus' name, in the Inquisition, pogroms, etc., you can at least see where Rambam is coming from.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: contrarian
[info]onionsoupmix
2009-11-05 03:59 am UTC (link)
As a historical argument, I can appreciate that.

However, it really casts doubt, for me, on the whole there-is-no-morality-with-out-religion bit.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: contrarian
(Anonymous)
2009-11-05 01:03 pm UTC (link)
When Jews were killed in Jesus name, that wasn't Jesus fault. Jesus never wanted to kill Jews.

Daniel

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: contrarian
(Anonymous)
2009-11-05 07:05 pm UTC (link)
On that basis then i think alot of charedi rabbis and chassidic rebbes can all be regarded in the same way.

R

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2009-11-05 03:49 am UTC (link)
don't the gospels say that pontius pilate killed jesus? among thousands of other jews?

but the romans get off scott free because they were the ones the christians were trying to sweet talk into converting.

(Reply to this)

it's nothing personal against akkum.
[info]stjust
2009-11-06 04:02 am UTC (link)
he is also ready to kill non observant fellow jews.

(Reply to this)


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