I am posting a section of a discussion from a hidden thread on imamother. It was very disturbing to me because before reading it, I was under the impression that elokistim were a handful of crazy guys who thought the rebbe was god. Maybe one guy in Boston, one in Milwaukee, another one somewhere else, nothing to get worried about. After I read this thread, I realized that most meshichists, which includes the majority of Lubavitchers in Crown Heights, do not really place any limits on the divinity of the rebbe and have a difficult time explaining how his powers are different than those of Hashem. Keep in mind that the discussion you are about to read is moderated by intelligent, knowledgeable FFB women who have learned chassidus their whole lives.
Poster One : I just realised... Do you ever seem to talk more about the Rebbe to your kids than Hashem? Do you ever emphasise doing things 'for' the Rebbe sometimes more than for Hashem? I am NOT trying to start a big controversial thread, but I just realised that there are little things that I do with my baby (he's not really the age of understanding yet!) that need some work! Ie. Why sing yechi (for those who sing it...) with my child FIRST when I should be singing Hashem is here? Meaning, I know that Hashem is the focal point and that the Rebbe is a way of connecting to Hashem etc. but my child has not yet learnt of Hashem. I must base his education primarily on Hashem before I can teach him to connect to the Rebbe. Does this sound right? Thus, it makes more sense for me to 'koch' in 12 Pesukim because they form the basis of what a child should know from the earliest age on. Yechi (once again for those who hold by it) at a very early age is somewhat of a leap for a child who has not attained a G-d before he has attained a Rebbe. What I'm trying to say is - before we push Rebbe in our kids lives, shouldn't we instill a real love, appreciation (as best we can) of Hashem in our kids? Is that why kids who are older have so many questions? They never got a G-d in the first place???
Poster Two: why not do both? I dont look at it as its inseperable, teaching about the Rebbe helps to teach about Hashem, and vv. I sing Hashem is here and yechi also. do both.
Poster Three : Before bed at night, I sing Shema with my daughter, and then "We Want Moshiach Now"...then I tell her that Mommy and Tatty love her, her family, friends...the Rebbe who gives her brachos and asks Hashem to take care of her, and most of all Hashem who takes care of her and loves her more than anyone could ever love her. I am also afraid of children getting confused. When I worked in Gan
Poster Four : I think this is a great idea for a thread,and it is very important to discuss, because there seem to be so many people who are confused about this. We do sing yechi with our kinderlach and teach them the 12 pesukim and every night before they go to bed, they say goodnight to the poster of the Rebbe (in their respective bedrooms). However, the first things, that we teach our children are Hashem is here, modeh ani, Torah Tzivo and shema. There has to be a proper balance, but at the end of the day, the children NEED to understand the difference between davening to Hashem and asking the Rebbe to intercede on our behalf.
Poster Five : Just substitute the words Tatty or Mommy, to see if that makes sense or is the right idea. BTW, this discussion reminded me of something so cute: my daughter's very first word was...Rebbe!
Poster Four: Ooooooohhh so sweet! Such nachus!
Moderator : do you hear what Poster Five is saying?! food for thought!!!!
Poster Three : Slightly off topic... In the "Cholov Akum" thread, I mentioned that I now keep CY and know that I'm "making the Rebbe proud". Another poster mentioned that "aren't I making Hashem proud" and in PMs she mentioned that it seems that Lubavitchers follow the Rebbe instead of CHV Hashem. Any thoughts?
Poster Six : she is right, you are making hashem proud. and the rebbe too. no contradiction
Poster Seven : For a small child, Hashem is abstract. We do not see Hashem, only the manifestations of His creations. The Rebbe is something that the child can see pictures of and hear stories of. He or she may equate the Rebbe with Hashem in his earlier years but I think that all children will concoct a human version of Hashem to believe in until he can grasp the abstract. Since 3 Tammuz, it is vitally important that we give children who are growing up now, a sense of who the Rebbe is. Every day, when parents make brochas with their children, the child hears Hashem's name. In time he understands the role that Hashem plays.
Poster Eight: You have to emphasize that Hashem above all. You don't want Chas V'shalom your children to idolize the Rebbe like a G-dlike figure.
Moderator : Well, Chassidus talks about the Rebbe seeing all, knowing all, capable of all ... sounds pretty G-dlike to me!
Poster Six :
Well, Chassidus talks about the Rebbe seeing all, knowing all, capable of all ... sounds pretty G-dlike to me! |
Moderator :
um, my dear, this is pure avoda zara. AYN OYD MILVADOI. |
are you saying that Chasidus is avoda zara? what limitations do you think the Rebbe has?
Poster Five : Recommended learning: Mitzvas Minui Melech mitzvah of Appointing a King, in Derech Mitzvosecha from the Tzemach Tzedek, to understand the connection between Malchus Beis Dovid and the Malchus of Hashem, of which it is a reflection. Cognizance of the Rebbe in every aspect of our life increases awareness of Hashem in same.
Poster Nine : my almost 2 year old has no concept of what hashem means. when I tell her her father is going to shul to daven to hashem she says "aba went to shul to say hi to hashem" when I sing 'hashem is here' she looks around and asks, "where?" but if you ask her where the rebbe is she can point out all the pictures. b/c there is something physical to see, it's much more real to her. I don't talk about the rebbe and hashem the same way so I don't think she would ever confuse them. when she gets older, she'll understand
Poster Ten : I totally agree that Hashem needs to be stressed more. So many girls I know are so messed up of you ask them are you davening to the rebbe or Hashem many might say the Rebbe. Even though of course youre making the Rebbe proud in my opinion its better to always say your making Hashem proud!
We dont want people to ever get the idea that we think of the Rebbe is Gd. When we mean the Rebbe helps us to connect to Hashem we need to be very clear about that and not say things that make it seem otherwise. Going to lubavitch schools, I was constantly hearing comments that would bother me. I felt people were not saying and being clear about what the Rebbes role was and especially baal teshuvas or girls who werent taught at home were so confuesed!
Poster One : What is particularly confusing is that the Rebbe stated about the FR that he was "atzmus and mehus in a guf". This is a very explosive statement and seemingly 'wrong'. And hte Rebbe provided no explanation for this. So we struggle to understand what a Rebbe really is in light of that statement. Still, the parameters of Rebbe and G-d MUST be drawn very definitively for little children otherwise they will grow up screwed up. I would not tell my kids what the Rebbe said about the FR because it's really confusing (im struggling with it). So Moderator, yes a Rebbe is 'all powerful' etc. But I wouldn't let my kids know too much about that until they understood what Chassidus has to say about Hashem ECHOD, Ein od Milvado etc.
Moderator :
What is particularly confusing is that the Rebbe stated about the FR that he was "atzmus and mehus in a guf". This is a very explosive statement and seemingly 'wrong'. And hte Rebbe provided no explanation for this. |
If you learn Chasidus, it's explained. Problem is, girls especially are often clueless about Chasidus. Shluchos too. I read this the other day in Lessons in Tanya:
Quote: |
In the World of Atzilut nothing exists which is separate from G‑dliness; nothing at that level feels that it exists independently of G‑d, and everything in Atzilut is totally nullified to G‑dliness. |
of course the Rebbe is is no way meaning he is Hashem and by the way some people take it to mean that literally. anyone who does is serving avoda zara
Moderator :
I dont see the confusion. We are all atzmus umihus melubash beguf- its called a neshama - thats exactly what a neshama is just the Rebbes is on a higher level and more revealed. |
No, that's not what the Rebbe said. The Rebbe didn't say "we are all ..." He said it on the Rebbe!
The difference between Hashem and the Rebbe? Easy! Hashem created the Rebbe
Hashem created the Rebbe, a human being, with G-dly powers.