onionsoupmix: It had to happen...

onionsoupmix (

onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2008-03-14 04:57:00

Entry tags:

rebbetzin, tznius

It had to happen...

It was almost predictable. The first two pictures of the Rebbetzin are the ones used in most chabad articles. Other versions of it can be found through google images. The third picture is the one in the most recent Neshei Newsletter. As you can see, the neckline was nicely colored in to conform with tznius guidelines. I guess I should just be happy her face was not blurred out.

What is Orthodoxy coming to if publications feel the need to photoshop pictures of their icons to match the latest right wing trend? I guess the idea is that young women should not be encouraged to wear open-collar blouses just because the rebbetzin dressed this way. Right?

(Post a new comment)

	conundrum1 2008-03-14 01:02 pm UTC (link)
	That is interesting. One would think that if people follow the Rebbe so blindly that they would also believe that his wife would have been in accordance with his views...but who am I to judge. (Reply to this)

	antidos 2008-03-14 01:22 pm UTC (link)
	Well. Moshe Rabbeinu ate milk with chicken, same thing applies to Rebbetznin. When our poskim rule that all women must wear burkah, guess how they will paint pictures of Rebbetzin or Sarah, Rivkah, Rochel & Leah. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	leahmiriam 2008-03-14 01:57 pm UTC (link)
	I, too, was 'shocked' at the lack of a 'suitable' head covering..but we must remember, it was only in the latter part of the last century that people became so ridiculously uptight and demanded stricter adherance to tznius. Back in the day, the suit and hat she was wearing were totally acceptable. They still should be. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	happyduck1979 2008-03-14 02:32 pm UTC (link)
	2nded. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	(Anonymous) 2008-03-16 07:10 pm UTC (link)
	Her headwear reminds me of one of those Carmen Miranda fruit hats. (Reply to this) (Parent)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-16 07:11 pm UTC

	torahumaddachic 2008-03-14 02:27 pm UTC (link)
	i think she is beautiful. and iconic. and i think its a tragedy that people want to frum-wash her because she wasnt a cookie cutter and she wasnt perfectly frum- but nobody is. she should be all the more inspiring as is. I'm not lubavitch, but I greatly admire Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2008-03-14 02:39 pm UTC (link)
	She certainly was very pretty, but I don't know that much about her to admire her. This is despite the many articles I have read about her life. Basically, it looks like she supported her husband in his work and had some of her own causes and that's it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. What do you admire her for? Edited at 2008-03-14 02:40 pm UTC (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

No Coincidence -

24816, 2008-03-17 05:04 pm UTC

	llennhoff 2008-03-14 03:00 pm UTC (link)
	You forget the fact that halachic decisions have the ability to define reality. Thus, as tzniut standards have increased, the Rebbetzin's clothes in the past shifted to match. The photoshopping of the pictures reflects the real (halachic) reality, as opposed to the unretouched pictures, which merely reflected the false reality of the senses. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	onionsoupmix 2008-03-14 06:09 pm UTC (link)
	No joke. My son had a chabad teacher last year who would draw Avraham Avinu and his son Yitzchak with chabad hats, suits and Yosef's coat was decorated with Yechi Hamelech signs. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

llennhoff, 2008-03-14 06:18 pm UTC

(no subject) -

bringing_peace, 2008-03-17 04:24 am UTC

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van_vin, 2008-03-25 10:36 am UTC

mrn613
2008-03-14 03:53 pm UTC (link)

There's a good reason that is the picture usually use for her: it is the modest picture promulgated by Chabad.

In other pictures,she is dressed much less modestly and her hair is much less covered. IIRC she usually wore a pillbox hat in NY in the 50's and 60's as they were popular then.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.findagrave.com/photos/2006/78/13681652_114287448839.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi%3Fpage%3Dgr%26GSvcid%3D11032%26GRid%3D13681652%26&h=240&w=200&sz=12&hl=en&start=8&um=1&tbnid=Qy54kA7MDmo6GM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=92&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dchaya%2Bschneerson%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	mrn613 2008-03-14 03:55 pm UTC (link)
	oops that is the wrong link, see below (Reply to this) (Parent)

	mrn613 2008-03-14 03:54 pm UTC (link)
	There's a good reason that is the picture usually use for her: it is the modest picture promulgated by Chabad. In other pictures,she is dressed much less modestly and her hair is much less covered. IIRC she usually wore a pillbox hat in NY in the 50's and 60's as they were popular then. http://www.findagrave.com/photos/2006/78/13681652_114287444128.jpg (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mrn613 2008-03-14 03:56 pm UTC (link)
	Note the sleeves on this picture. They do not appear to cover her elbows (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

mrn613, 2008-03-14 04:00 pm UTC

(no subject) -

bringing_peace, 2008-03-17 04:26 am UTC

	onionsoupmix 2008-03-14 05:06 pm UTC (link)
	I don't think she is married in that picture. Is she? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) -

mrn613, 2008-03-14 09:27 pm UTC

(no subject) -

ruchel, 2008-03-15 09:54 pm UTC

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mrn613, 2008-03-16 12:51 am UTC

(no subject) -

onionsoupmix, 2008-03-16 02:33 am UTC

(no subject) -

ruchel, 2008-03-16 12:46 pm UTC

	deja vu (Anonymous) 2008-03-15 04:53 pm UTC (link)
	didnt you already talk about this topic here like a few months ago? -anya (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: deja vu onionsoupmix 2008-03-16 02:34 am UTC (link)
	Nope. First time, sorry. I did discuss whether she wore a sheitel at one point. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: deja vu - (Anonymous), 2008-03-16 04:09 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-03-15 10:59 pm UTC (link)

All those pictures are the same. Just one is only of her minus the other women. Also she does not look happy. Note how other women around her are smiling and chatting to each other. She seems to be more of a recluse.
I do not know much about her life, she deffinately aint wearing a wig in this pic and i love how lubavitchers claim she did. Especially in those days they didn't have wigs like today and you can see her hairline.
I think there is alot about Chaya Mushka people don't know. I wouldn't believe half the Lubavitch stories about her anyway, seeing as they colour in her clothes to make her into something she simply was not. I am surprised they don't photoshop a sheitel on her head.
R

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Why not appreciate her?
(Anonymous)
2008-03-16 04:22 am UTC (link)

The woman certainly earned the quiet life that she clearly wanted, or at least never tried to change. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if they put a sheitel on her in the next version. Monsey chasidim put payos on a little boy in a Yiddish version of kid's book.

I recall a parade in 1987, Lag B'Omer. IIRC, one of the floats portrayed men garbed in kapatas and borsalinos approaching har sinai. The Rebbe laughed and smiled when it passed, obviously amused. (This was in stark contrast to his reaction to the float that portrayed housing for Russians in Israel, which he had recently spoken about. To that he showed a very serious expression and said "That's it. That's what I want." I just say this last bit to avoid comments that the Rebbe was just in a good mood that day.)

RJ

(Reply to this) (Parent)

The Rebbetzin
(Anonymous)
2008-03-16 02:13 am UTC (link)

I never personally met the rebbetzin but people that I know were close with her throughout decades, and they feel she was more or less as portrayed. She liked the quiet life. Just as the Rebbe rarely traveled anywhere, neither did she. She did not seek anything particularly luxurious for herself, as many of her standing might have. She was a bit modern for a charedi, but then again, the Rebbe was not charedi, he was a pariah among charedim. She was pious befitting a lady of standing as she was. As regards tznius, she kept minhag hamakom, and no one can look at her and say that she is not dressed tastefully and modestly as befits a lady of standing.

What I gripe about is the implication that she is not fulfilling the minimum halachic requirements in these pictures. The halachas have changed and those who say that covering the collarbone or covering every hair etc. are minimum requirements are unfairly damaging the reputation of a woman who, by plausible accounts, did her best to be frum under very trying circumstances, like WWII and migration from Russia to Germany, Poland, France and the US. I wish they would consider the implications of trying to charedize chabad. (Yes, I am familiar with the Tzemach Tzedek's psak, and I stand by this, regardless.)

RJ

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: The Rebbetzin onionsoupmix 2008-03-16 02:25 am UTC (link)
	+1, as always. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: The Rebbetzin

ruchel
2008-03-16 12:53 pm UTC (link)

Halacha or not, it is CLEAR that the halachos of the collarbone, for example, were not known and are still not known in some communities especially in Europe. I grew up NEVER hearing of them, and I'm only 23. I learned knees, elbows, no revealing neckline, no showing off belly, whatever, but the word collarbone was never pronounced. I did a search on a French halacha site, the word tznius shows up plenty, but NOT "collarbone"!

As a result, I regularly see charedi women, in sheitel or any other full haircovering, showing some/all collarbones. Not even talking of the rebbetzin's time!

As for the knees and elbows, from pictures I saw, it wasn't known/followed before the shift to the right either. Same for pants, although I suppose they weren't worn by charedi ladies, but still they were worn in communities that reject them fully today.

As for haircovering, in many European communities it wasn't done, period. I suppose they didn't know about it. I read an interview of an old French rebbetzin saying they didn't know.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The Rebbetzin - (Anonymous), 2008-03-16 07:47 pm UTC

Re: The Rebbetzin -

onionsoupmix, 2008-03-16 09:35 pm UTC

Re: The Rebbetzin - (Anonymous), 2008-03-18 10:58 am UTC

	Re: The Rebbetzin 24816 2008-03-17 05:24 pm UTC (link)
	+ -FI (Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2008-03-16 09:53 pm UTC (link)

"How beautiful are you, oh, the one with the beautiful eye..."

This line open a poem by Rabbi Yehuda Halevi, the author of "HaKozari" (a philosphical book defending Judasism against both Christianity and Islam and Phylosphy.) The poem is an ode to the feminine beauty and its affects on the other, weak gender.

I guess, that since it was written in the eleventh century CE, it was apparently written BEFORE they had invented Tznius :-)

(Reply to this)

	When world goes unznies 24816 2008-03-17 05:22 pm UTC (link)
	It makes sense to balance it, and inevitably some people would go overboard by trying to reverse the history retroactively. Is it worthy of your time? -FI (Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: When world goes unznies (Anonymous) 2008-03-17 07:44 pm UTC (link)
	Yes it does! Because, in essence they picture a world which is untrue and in my radical view anything that is untrue is a lie, which means that they lead me and my children to live in the world of lie - the world of mockery, "olam ha-sheqer", "olama d'leitzanuta", there are many names for that world but they all describe the world of Satan, not the world of Go-d (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)