onionsoupmix ([info]onionsoupmix) wrote,
@ 2008-03-27 10:24:00
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Entry tags:bans, hypocrisy, sex, tznius

You gotta love it!
 
Count the black velvet yarmulkahs in this section of men who were arrested for soliciting an undercover officer. Article here.



And for everyone who is going to write some stupid crap about how every community has its bad apples and blah, blah, blah: Get this straight. I don't care if your husbands are porn addicts or visit hookers on a regular basis or even if they snort cocaine on yom kippur. 

What I do care about is the extreme hypocrisy  and double standards of everyone involved, the men, the shuls, the rabbonim. If one of the pious wives of these gentlemen decided to wear jeans or uncover her hair or (gasp) attend a shul without a mechitza, you can bet that the next day her children would be expelled from their black hat schools and her husband would file for divorce. And that's in a nice community, where they won't damage her car or spray her with bleach. Because of course, yiddishe women can't behave or look like those terrible meshugeneh goyim, with their crazy clothes and attitudes. We are the chosen people, better, holier and smarter than everyone else.

And I'm still waiting for the Kol Koreh from the rabbonim about visiting prostitutes. So far, all I have are the ones about how all the problems in the world, famine, deaths, wars are attributed to women whose skirts slide slightly above their knees when they sit. 




(97 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]ruchel
2008-03-27 02:49 pm UTC (link)
you're right here unfortunately

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-27 03:10 pm UTC (link)
The thing that bothers me is that women are so naive, so gullible. Half of imamothers, if they recognized their spouse in the picture, would automatically decide that the way to fix this problem is to be very careful and get undressed under a blanket/wear a sheitel 24-7/wear longer skirts, etc, etc. The other half would decide that therapy with a frum counselor is the answer. Therapy, most studies show, is very ineffective for sexual behaviors.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2008-03-27 06:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-27 10:16 pm UTC

[info]zachkessin
2008-03-27 03:00 pm UTC (link)
I would think that if a frum guy was in such a class he should at least take off the kippa, go bear headed, or wear a ball cap.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-27 03:07 pm UTC (link)
No, covering up your religion is assur, it might make people think that you are ashamed to be a frum Jew. We wouldn't want anyone to think that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zachkessin, 2008-03-27 03:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-27 05:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bringing_peace, 2008-03-28 01:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 12:05 pm UTC

[info]ymarkov
2008-03-27 04:34 pm UTC (link)
Hypocrisy stinks.

As for the Kol Korehs, I wouldn't expect any such proclamations for any problem that is more or less hidden. Remember how long it took the mainstream rabbis to acknowledge domestic violence problems? Now every issue of the Jewish Press and OU Action magazine features a Task Force Shalom ad. ("It hurts to call a domestic abuse hotline. It hurts more not to.")

Slit skirts and such, OTOH, are very visible.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-27 04:58 pm UTC (link)
I sincerely hope every single wife of those guys in the picture above goes out and buys herself a nice skirt with a long slit, way above the knee.

Sounds ridiculous, but they have no other recourse.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2008-03-27 06:56 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-27 10:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2008-03-28 12:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 01:35 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2008-03-28 12:57 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-31 05:13 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-03-27 04:53 pm UTC (link)
You could say that prostitution isn't as rampant as issues such as short skirts and therefore not a communal problem per se. A Kol Koreh would probably be used for an entire disregard, which hasn't happened in the Frum community (yet?).

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2008-03-27 04:54 pm UTC (link)
That was me, THELETTERN.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-27 04:56 pm UTC (link)
The point is that a kol koreh should be reserved for relatively serious problems and short skirts is not one of them. Especially compared to marital infidelity. I, personally, think kol korehs are generally useless; people do whatever they want for the most part. No one wakes up and says, gosh I better throw out all my skirts because they have been banned.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]hannah_33
2008-03-27 06:09 pm UTC (link)
Personally, I want to see what happens if the kid of Guy #1 wind up on a shidduch with the kid of Guy #3?

"Mazal tov! You look familiar, have we met before? Oh, wait..."

(Reply to this)


[info]antidos
2008-03-27 06:54 pm UTC (link)
The solution is so simple !

1) Abandon 12 days wait, decrease it to 7 days.
2) Allow using condoms and other ways for contraception
3) Teach the ways to, well, enjoy oneself privately.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-27 10:19 pm UTC (link)
Oy, what are you saying. I cannot even have such words on my screen as you are writing. Mamash, yidden have had mesiras nefesh for over 3000 years so that we could keep the Torah and the sheva nekiim and not use condoms and the "other ways" of which you speak and you want to introduce these terrible ideas into everybody's minds? Chas vechallilah. Challilah vechas.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2008-03-28 12:45 am UTC

[info]malenkiy_scot
2008-03-30 02:24 pm UTC (link)
12 days is ok, it's twelve kids that is usually the problem.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]zyama_krendel
2008-03-27 09:10 pm UTC (link)
I fully agree that those men are morons (at the very least, for not thinking of the Hillul Ashem they are achieving by showing up for the sessions not taking off their yarmulkas :) ).

I fully agree that women should god-damn be left alone and allowed to wear whatever they feel like wearing (as long as it looks nice, of course :)) ).

I just would like to mention that, for all I know, the charedi society does not make a distinction between men and women where it concerns "punishing" for misbehavior: if a man has been noticed doing something bad, he may just as well be expelled from his yeshiva, excommunicated, etc. Although, of course, men are allowed noticeably more freedom where it comes to clothes.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-27 09:58 pm UTC (link)
I just would like to mention that, for all I know, the charedi society does not make a distinction between men and women where it concerns "punishing" for misbehavior: if a man has been noticed doing something bad, he may just as well be expelled from his yeshiva, excommunicated, etc

Really? You think these men in the above picture have been placed in cherem by the community rabbonim? I would love to see that. I would love to see even one public cherem notice for a man who solicits sex. You think their kids are getting kicked out of school? You think they are not going to get an aliyah in shul on shabbos? Money expiates every sin.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zyama_krendel, 2008-03-28 08:12 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 11:47 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]zyama_krendel, 2008-03-29 07:34 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-03-27 09:45 pm UTC (link)
Represent!

Yochanan

(Reply to this)


[info]hannahsarah
2008-03-28 12:13 am UTC (link)
Chillul Hashem, indeed.

I went to school with a girl who paid her way through college by working at a fancy brothel in NYC. She said that 90% of her clientelle were black hat. When she asked them why they were there, every single one of them blamed their wife for being niddah. She also said that these guys never bathed, especially in the summer.

Do you think that girl likes Jewish people?




On the other hand, I haven't had any "special attention" in almost five years. I wonder if I can get a heter for a gigolo? ;-)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-28 12:26 am UTC (link)
Yeah, you can get a heter. Just ask the right rav. Check out these sites for some help with your journey:

http://pilegeshpersonals.com/

http://newyork.craigslist.org/search/ppp?query=frum

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2008-03-28 12:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 01:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-28 02:05 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]ilana_frombklyn, 2008-03-28 04:00 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 01:29 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-28 03:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-28 03:20 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-28 04:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-28 05:27 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 06:01 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-28 06:34 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 06:53 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-28 11:05 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-30 11:41 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-04-03 02:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-04-03 03:05 pm UTC
on overstaying one's welcome - (Anonymous), 2008-04-02 01:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-31 04:19 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-04-03 02:50 pm UTC
I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this.....
(Anonymous)
2008-03-28 03:09 am UTC (link)
Mrs. Onionbroth just couldn't resist... Maybe the frum people were at traffic school and the photographer mixed up the pictures? I remember something like this happened many years ago to a pre-Orthodox friend when they used to do slide carousels for a wedding and all the family got together to watch and the bachelor party carousel was mixed up with the wedding carousel and it was very embarrassing

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this.....
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-28 12:02 pm UTC (link)
It is possible. Maybe the picture were mixed up or the kippas were photoshopped in. Maybe OJ didn't do it and there really are WMD in Iraq. Right now, I am working with the evidence as it appears to be. When you have some new information, please share it.

Also, I would like to guess that you are female. Correct?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - (Anonymous), 2008-03-28 06:00 pm UTC
Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 06:07 pm UTC
Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - (Anonymous), 2008-03-28 07:47 pm UTC
Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-30 11:41 am UTC
Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - [info]antidos, 2008-03-28 07:08 pm UTC
Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - [info]ziska, 2008-04-04 07:52 am UTC
Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-04-04 10:57 am UTC
Re: I just knew Mrs. Soupmix would pick up on this..... - (Anonymous), 2008-03-31 04:23 am UTC

[info]ilana_frombklyn
2008-03-28 03:55 am UTC (link)
You are dead on with this one, the double standard is sickening. Also on what these super-"frum" (certainly there's a better word??) rabbis decide to ban and make a stink about....charity concerts! Tznius! as opposed to....agunot!!! men visiting prostitutes! It's very saddening. Where are our leaders, is my question?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Come on
(Anonymous)
2008-03-28 04:51 am UTC (link)
OK people; Lets get real
1.Have Rabbis condoned this behavior?
2. Is it so widespread that it needs a public fuss? After all do you want to give more men ideas?
3. The lady of the evening mentioned above who says 90% of her clientele were Haredi and hence she hated Jews -maybe she hated Jews in the first place and saw 2 chareidim and went around telling everyone all her clients were Haredim. You are not exactly talking about a reliable witness here -these are the very dregs of society (though the lowest dreg is the John).

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Come on - [info]ilana_frombklyn, 2008-03-28 04:56 am UTC
Re: Come on - [info]ilana_frombklyn, 2008-03-28 04:58 am UTC
Re: Come on - (Anonymous), 2008-03-28 05:35 am UTC
Re: Come on - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 11:59 am UTC

[info]antidos
2008-03-28 01:45 pm UTC (link)
Women should dress like this:

http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/02012008/1424901/YE0733537_hh.jpg

and men would have no problems ! :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-28 02:02 pm UTC (link)
Is that the burkah lady?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]antidos, 2008-03-28 03:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-31 04:25 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-04-01 08:47 pm UTC
Lo Tinaff
(Anonymous)
2008-03-28 03:17 pm UTC (link)
God already issued a kol koreh and had Moshe print it on some tablets.

I think that Rabbanim issuing kol korehs not to visit hookers is useless. Anyone soliciting prostitutes is not going to be deterred by a kol koreh. On the other hand, someone who may be motivated to improve their tznius/kashrus/shabbos might be influenced. That's why you don't see kol korehs banning murder/theft/idolatry - if someone is considering a deadly sin they are not a receptive audience.

What I have seen are kol korehs banning contact with a trangressing individual who someone brings to a rabbi's attention. Though it's not that common for several logistical reason (sin needs to be proven, rabbi needs to be sufficiently motivated, banee would need to care about cherem, etc.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Lo Tinaff
[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-28 03:54 pm UTC (link)
Vell, prostitutes for men are not really assur technically, are they? Lo Tinaff is for sex with a married woman. Not a married man with a zona.

And no, I don't think Kol Korehs have any effect on tznius. Just people who end up feel holier than everyone else because they were already super tznius to begin with.

Edited at 2008-03-28 03:54 pm UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Rapists are coming! - [info]24816, 2008-03-28 04:32 pm UTC
Re: Rapists are coming! - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-28 06:05 pm UTC
Re: Rapists are coming! - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-28 07:15 pm UTC
immaleeeeeeeeh! the trolls are here! - (Anonymous), 2008-04-02 01:24 pm UTC
Making left turns is very inefficient way to take right. - [info]24816, 2008-03-31 01:55 pm UTC
Paternity Testing - (Anonymous), 2008-04-01 09:05 pm UTC

[info]zyama_krendel
2008-03-29 10:39 pm UTC (link)
Just came to me - is prostitution illegal in America?..

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-30 11:31 am UTC (link)
Yes, except in some parts of Nevada. This is not in Nevada.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]zyama_krendel, 2008-03-30 12:45 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-31 12:22 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-03-31 12:43 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-03-31 09:51 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2008-03-30 12:59 pm UTC (link)
The problem here--men cheating on their wives with hookers--is hardly a Jewish problem, and by that I mean simply that it is not a problem exclusive to Jews. It is a human problem. I don't think anyone can use the bad apples argument exclusively for Jews, but should instead use it for men in general. Here are a few lousy men, with no shame, with no integrity, but one should not say then that all men are lousy maggots, just like one cannot say that all Jews are lousy maggots who cheat. Yes, the rabbis who are yapping about concerts and whatever are, in many ways, enablers and are wasting time, just like wives who stick by these men are. So are the priests who are not talking to their church, etc. But it isn't like the secular law (aside from Nevada, right?) hasn't condemned prostitution, and it the vast majority of Orthodoxy knows that cheating on your wife is wrong. The men here in the official frum uniform are only proving further what fools and pigs they are by not having the decency and insight to see that they are bringing shame to a) men b) their wives c) their community d) their God by continuing their display of "piety."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-30 01:14 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I agree that this behavior is limited to Orthodox Jews. The behavior of pretending to be holier than everyone else is, however, limited to fundamentalists, including Orthodox Jews. So it is most hypocritical when it turns out that in fact, surprise, these people are no better than anyone else and are in some cases, worse.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-04-03 03:11 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]onionsoupmix, 2008-04-03 04:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-03-31 04:28 am UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2008-04-01 09:07 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]arielsokolovsky, 2008-04-03 03:19 pm UTC

[info]malenkiy_scot
2008-03-30 02:57 pm UTC (link)
You can start working on your test now. And remember: no cheating!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]onionsoupmix
2008-03-30 03:04 pm UTC (link)
lol.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(97 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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